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Kim L.
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bullet Topic: Guideline for time between scene changes
    Posted: 2/04/07 at 5:12pm
Hi, I am new to this forum. I am the backstage director for a play that our home school group is putting on, Fiddler on the Roof. The play is comprised of 30 middle/high school students. I am working in conjunction with the director, music director and choreographer to map out our show (for lack of technical terms).

As we have worked through the script and mapped out the timing of things, we have developed a discrepancy of opinions on the time that scene changes should take. In my research, I read that a scene change should take 10-15 seconds. Some of our production team would like our violinist to play for 1-2 minutes in between scene changes. I think we may lose our audience if we allow that much time to elapse before continuing with the plot line.

Can anyone give me some feedback on this?

Thank you,
Kim
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GoldCanyonLady
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bullet Posted: 2/04/07 at 5:35pm
That's a great question and I would like the answer too. We are doing The Curious Savage and there are 3 acts with 2 scenes in each of the first two acts and that is when the clothing changes have to take place (when the 2nd scene starts, it is a different day). With 11 actors ---most of them on stage at curtain, that doesn't leave much time.
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MikeO
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bullet Posted: 2/04/07 at 6:29pm
Kim,
If you can do a scene change for Fiddler in 15-20 seconds, I applaud you. When I was on the stage crew for Fiddler, we had 3 or 4 tech rehearsals to get the scene changes done as quickly as possible. We got most down to under 2 minutes. Playing violin music during the scene changes is a great idea. That is what we did. I wouldn't worry about losing the audience. Scene changes give them time to think about what just transpired. Good Luck!
I'd rather act, but they found out I can do tech & sets!!
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bullet Posted: 2/04/07 at 11:25pm
In my opinion, a scene change can sustain an audience's interest as long as there is MOVEMENT.    As soon as the action stops (waiting for a platform to be locked into place; waiting for a set piece to arrive; standing around until everything is set exactly right, etc) it's then that the audience suddenly realizes they're stuck in a scene change and they become ansty.
 
A good scene-change should be as carefully choreographed as a dance number or fight sequence.   Playing music is great, but it's not enough.  Your scenery should flow in and out as as efficiently as possible. 
 
Emphasis is on the word "efficiently" -- not "quickly."  Fast scene changes can be hazardous to cast, crew, sets, orchestra and audience (I've seen more than one harried scene change result in props dumped into the front row or orchestra pit).
 
Keep the action moving, keep the actors in character, and keep your hands and feet away from anything that might pinch or run them over!
 
"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone
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Chris Polo
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bullet Posted: 2/04/07 at 11:33pm

I don't think I've ever seen problems caused by set changes that were too fast, but I've certainly seen a few damaged by changes that were too slow!

The thing to shoot for is to do it as quickly as possible -- as a director, I start to get very antsy as a change approaches the 1-minute mark, and by a minute-30, I'm out of my mind. In my opinion -- and this is just my own opinion, mind you, I've no idea how others feel about it -- if the change is so complicated that it has to run over the 2-minute mark, do it as part of the show. Curtain open, lights up, with crew in costume, or at least color-coordinated. I've done set changes in front of the audience dressed as a maid for Forty Carats (working with the stage manager dressed as a butler), and in our recent production of Harvey, the crew all wore white shirts, black pants and an assortment of bow ties.  Open curtain requires smooth, professional choreography, with every member of the crew working swiftly and purposefully -- no aimless meandering, talking out loud, or standing around watching somebody else.
 
Music is a great way to cover a very short lull for a scene change, and I nearly always use it, but I've learned from experience that what an audience really wants is for us to get our nuts-and-bolts backstage business out of the way NOW, turn the lights back on, and get on with the business of entertaining them.
 
It takes planning and organization to do a fast, smooth scene change, especially when there are a lot of things to haul off and on at once. Try to make sure you have enough bodies for the job -- if a set change has gone as fast as it can possibly go and it's still too slow, it may be a sign that you just don't have enough people. With a large cast like Fiddler, if you need to you could recruit a few "townsfolk" to serve as stagehands for set changes, if the director's agreeable, and if you've got some good responsible kids who would do it. And Barb, I'd be looking at getting in a few folks to work as dressers for the ones who really need it and keeping the costume changes as simple as possible -- same pants, different jacket, zippers preferred over buttons, shoes that slip on, remove a sweater, add a jacket, etc.
 
To make scene changes go as smoothly as possible, set things up backstage so that each prop and piece of furniture or scenery has an assigned place at the start of the show, and make sure that things are either returned to that spot or taken to a different designated area if you need to get them out of the way.
 
Assign your stage crew to certain jobs and dressers to certain people, make sure everyone knows what they're supposed to do and at what point in the change they do it, and then rehearse it until it goes as quickly as possible. If you've got your assignments and choreography really well-balanced, every member of the crew will be busy throughout the change, and they'll finish their jobs and clear the stage within seconds of each other.
 
When I stage manage, I try as often as possible NOT to be responsible for actually setting or hauling anything. Instead I supervise the overall change, verify that everything's out there and properly set, jump in or send another crew member if someone gets hung up somewhere, make sure all crew members have cleared the stage, and cue lights and sound at the end.
 
We had a crew of four for Harvey, where the scene changes involve going from the library of Elwood's home to the reception area at the sanitarium. For us that meant removing a side table, two side chairs, a rug, a fireplace, fireplace tools, two large framed pictures, and various and sundry ash trays, vases, and knicknacks, hauling two armchairs and two 8-foot columns to new positions, sliding out and removing a wall section to reveal a door,  turning two bookcases 180 degrees to become a new wall, and folding out another wall to form a new entryway. As the stage cleared, we brought on and positioned a large desk, an old-fashioned rolling desk chair, two waiting room chairs, and a new rug, hung four new pictures on the wall, and hauled in and attached an arched doorway to the new entryway. Last of all, we removed a pair of closed 10-foot long drapes on the upstage wall to reveal a floor-to-ceiling barred window -- that was done by two crew members armed with poles, working in tandem to flip the curtains off the brackets holding them up and lower them, with a third crew member gathering up the excess as it came down to keep it off the floor and out of the way of feet, and the three of them exiting gracefully together. By the end of the run, the changes were under a minute. They also got applause every night, much to our surprise.
 
The key was that every person hauled the same items each night, in the same sequence, and knew exactly where the items they needed were stored and where they had to take them to. Plus each of us was essentially responsible for only one-quarter of the stage. I was upstage right, so I removed the upstage right picture from the wall, helped another crew member put up three new ones its place,  moved the stage right column upstage a foot, took a side table off, came back on with the new rug and laid it down, and turned the two bookcases. By that time, the guy removing the wall to reveal the door downstage right was done -- I helped him haul the panel off and place it in its backstage position, and the two of us brought on the desk. I went back for the rolling chair, brought it out, straightened the desk papers, and I was done.
 
OK, so this is a REALLY long answer that probably went places you hadn't been asking about when you posted your question, but once I get going, I just can't stop! To get back to the original question, I worked one show, a comedy, where the director insisted on "message music" during the scene changes -- he expected the audience to actually listen to the words of these carefully-chosen pieces, because they had something to say about what they'd just seen.  They were good choices, but they were also between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 minutes long -- crew was done well before the music was, and the show lost momentum that was very hard to get back when the lights came up again. Plus the audience never heard the songs -- generally at about a minute 30, they start to talk to each other in the dark anyway, and since the music for this show was supposed to be heard, the volume was up, which meant they talked even louder. I decided during that production that the maximum amount of time to make an audience sit in the dark is the least amount of time humanly possible. I also learned it's a mistake to think the audience appreciates my taste in music so much that they'd rather listen to it than talk to their neighbor or watch the rest of the show!
Chris Polo
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"The scenery in the play was beautiful, but the actors got in front of it." -- Alexander Woolcott
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JShieldsIowa
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bullet Posted: 2/05/07 at 12:18am

Audiences can get really bored during longer scene changes.  I know I personally do.  I think you can often lose the momentum of a show by longer scene changes.  At the same time it can be almost impossible to get a scene change to go extremely quickly.  If I know that scene changes will take a while, I have the stage crew in costume (like Chris suggests) with minimal lighting.  I will spend time with the crew and come up with a "flight plan" of where everyone needs to go and assign out tasks.  This isn't my ideal option, but a couple of the theatres I work with don't have curtains - so sometimes it's not an option to hide the scene changes. 

In my opinion, if the violinist has 1-2 minutes worth of music but the scene change only takes 30 seconds - don't keep the audience waiting just so the violinist can keep playing.  This is a scene change, not a recital.  The audience came to see the show.  The violinist can be perpared to "fade out" or stop playing as the lights slowly come up on the scene.  The biggest complaint I hear from audiences of bigger musicals is "It was good - but it was sooo long".  I suggest not intentionally dragging out anything that can be sped up!  (These are just my opinions!)
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Gaafa
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bullet Posted: 2/05/07 at 2:29am

 
 G’day Kim!
Interesting question & good luck with your scenography for ‘Fiddler’!
Just to add my Zacks worth to the the other members who have covered it!

To me any scene change that takes 15 seconds is too long.
I try & make scene changes as seamless as possible, utilising the mise en scene design, sceneoligy, crew & the limited use of the performers [very limited?]  keeping in mind they can be useful at times & are just  warm props.
Realising you are working with students, you can in conjunction with the production team, choreograph into the pre change as a Move Cue for the warm props to effect the changes. Upon their exit or in a brown out which is acceptable & very effective during the ‘chase music’.
I have only done Fiddler using a revolve in Pro & Ameatre  productions, so possibly this is not that relevant to your situation.
The biggest factor with scene changes is working out the logistics of the ‘Moves’ & dove tailing them in by reducing the punters perceived time factor, of the change, with either lighting or other scenic happenings to retain their interest.
Unlike TV or film where the audience are actually inside the camera & the scene can be changed in the space of a frame or the movement of a switch,
We have to be subtly just as illusionary & cunning.
I have no idea the set or props you have to contend with, but in all cases working with a set what should paramount in it’s design is to the KISS principle or apply Accoms Razor to it’s logistics & scene changes.
Most script will have a stage plan & various lists to achieve required scene changes, but they invariably will only apply to a pro theatre &venue the show opened in originally & should be only taken as guide.
So the set & blocking needs to apply to your space.
In most Ameatre productions they have the distinct knack of leaving the set & mise en scene design until the week of the shows opening or as an after thought on the night before the dress rehearsal.
{The 6 P’s [Pre Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance]} should be applied long before the auditions, especially with a musical.
As the TD, SD or SM mark out the provisional set design on the deck of the rehearsal space if you can, either by tape, chalk or whatever, with set pieces & props get mock ups or utilise furniture & objects on hand similar to what would be used, at all rehearsals.
If you are restricted or can’t get permission to mark out the floor with tape, I have used white string held with tape at each end, just to give the stage dimensions, then used cardboard boxes & cut out Standees for the set pieces.
From this you & the production team will be able to visualise each scene & the scene changes logistics, can be considered at each rehearsal.
Instead of attempting to inversely apply the blocking to the set during the tech rehearsal.
Also this will give you a better picture on how the scene changes can be better performed efficiently. These days the use of a video camera during rehearsing the production is a useful tool, for you to map out the shows  logistics.
 
I remember, not trying to be too ‘Peachy’ or completely saddoble all together, many eons ago. Working on the set of the nation tour of Fiddler, commenting that the set designer had nicked my design idea, for Tevye’s house in Anatevka.
The fold out house I designed for a production of the Merry Wives of Windsor a couple of years earlier was very similar. Of course I in turn had probably ‘alf inched the idea anyway from someone else in the first place!
The set  I did for MWoW was based on a doll house design, with the front part of the house opening out, similar to the one in Fiddler. Except mine was a 2 storey set.- but I was totally  convinced it still was my idea first. I was all of 14 at the time, peeved & as thick as two short planks!
Anyhow that’s all another story!
I hope this helps Kim?
As I do tend to go off on a tangent now & then!
 
      Joe
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MartyW
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bullet Posted: 2/05/07 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Chris Polo

We had a crew of four for Harvey, where the scene changes involve going from the library of Elwood's home to the reception area at the sanitarium.
 
Chris, in the world of entertaining set changing, Harvey was my favorite too!.. As we are a thrust  with no wings with only about fifteen feet from the front of the stage to the back of the house, we often have to have eveything that is going to be in a show, actually have a place somewhere on stage. I had a set that had rolling book cases that pushed into walls to reveal the glass doors to the sanatarium, floping walls that covered stain glass windows and revealed institutional type doctor doors, two revolves and a on stage left two walls moved to not only cover the living room pocket doors and the revealed stair case beyond, but they created an entirley different profile for the that side of the stage... The center of the stage had an eight foot revolve that on the mansion side had the fireplace with mothers picture above and the reverse had a opaque lighted window with a 7 foot lighted fan transom above....  All of the furnature was loaded on the turn table and distributed from there... We had about six stage crew that worked the change, but they were all dressed as in doctor and nurse outfits.  The "Maid" also helped direct the movment. All done under our regular blue scene change lights at a higher than usual intensity. During the entire scene change, which was right about two minutes, we had the theme from Alfred Hichcock playing over it.  EVERYNIGHT the scene change got applause.  One night, it got a standing O.  As I said, due to the nature of our setting and the size of the sets/shows we sometime employ, creative scene changes are often requried. 
 
But to the question, fast is best... Longer can be ok, IF you plan it right... But the planing does start early.. Set desing with changes in mind is key.
I just closed Scrooge! which had a 40ft scene of 5 buildings and an associated town square. Each of these victorian buildings opened like a barbie doll house to provide individual spaces for all the vaired scenes.. One building face opend to the back stage and provided an 6x6 opening to bring out bigger props and set pieces... Our longest scene change was one min 10 sec and on that one we preset 3 additional scenes at the same time.  Audience  loved it. Bottom line, with the appropriate planning, (which you appear to be doing) required big set changes can be an acutal asset rather than a pure drain...
Marty W

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bullet Posted: 2/05/07 at 8:58pm
This is kind of on the same subject. When there are 3 acts with 2 sccenes in the first two acts, how much time should we allow for inbetween acts?  We had set aside 15 minutes for between the 1st and 2nd and 10 minutes for between Act 2 and 3. I'd like to shorten that. We will only do 30 seconds between scenes.
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bullet Posted: 2/05/07 at 9:45pm
For our scene changes I believe quicker is better...to a point. When we did "Harvey" ,when we got our change to a minute-20 I was so excited. The scenery was complicated and it took every second of that time to get it right.  It was a complete set change, I don't think a single piece stayed on. I kept telling my tech kids, the audience will truly be wondering "how'd they do that?"  So I was not too worried about that minute-20 that it took. Though we did not get applause, I did get alot of "Oh my god how did the scenes change so fast?" or just general comments on how amazing the scenery was.
For most,  generally I agree 15-20 seconds. The whole point is NOT to slow the pace of the show.  Which sometimes can be a real chlallenge.
Between Acts, we don't pause,  never thought to, is that the norm? We do plan a 15 minute intermission at the best point possible in the show.
 
Aimee
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