Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Building a Theater building

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alexpope
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Topic: Building a Theater building
Posted: 9/18/05 at 10:32am

I'm a board member of a small but well-established CT in Virginia, and we are in the midst of trying to raise capital to build a home for ourselves. We have the land, a perfect spot, but I have misgivings about the what is realistic for us to aim for in terms of a building. My questions are: Has anyone built a building recently, and, if so, how much was it, at least in comparison to your yearly income? Were there hidden pitfalls/costs? How did you raise the money? How easy is it to pay the upkeep expenses for it once constructed? Thanks

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jtonner
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Posted: 9/19/05 at 4:33pm

We have not built a building, still using a high school and soon to be in a renovated city theatre. When you consider a building of your own, the main pitfall is you must do shows. Over the past few years we have had to cancel a couple of shows for a variety of reasons. We hate to do it, but we can since we rent. If you have you own building you have a number of fixed costs to pay, no matter if you do a show or not. This also counts shows you want to do but the rights are pulled. In that case, it has to be replaced with another show, because no show no money.

The costs I would look at include, mortgage, Insurance, Utilities, Personnel (will you now need to hire a tech director, box office personnel or a receptionist). These costs will go on no matter what. In addition you will need to know what to do if a problem happens. Who will fix the furnace if it breaks?

You will also need to consider your ticket prices. Do they need to go up to cover costs. As you can tell, we have looked into this more than once. These are some of the reasons fewer and fewer groups are getting thier own building these days, it is very expensive.

One more thing that may help, see if you can find a theatre consultant that will not charge outrageous amounts to give your group a full list of the pros and cons.

Good Luck,

John

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Shatcher
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Posted: 9/19/05 at 5:22pm

You may want to see if the local arts council wants to be part of the building, that way more than one group will be helping to pay the bills.in addition to the things jtonner listed you need to think about the price of the equipment you will need. Lights and sound will cost a bunch and need to be roughed in before the space is built. When chosing a system like this remember to give yourselves room to grow. You will also need soft goods, seats, storage, shop space, dressing rooms, headsets/intercom, fly space and rigging... This list can get pretty long. also remember all of your equipment will need regular upkeep. I would find a good theatrical supplier to talk to about this stuff. A lot of theatre designers have never worked in a theatre so find some one who knows about the tech systems to work with you. chances are they will think of things you haven't. if you can't find one in your area check with a local university theatre department and see who they use.

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dougb
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Posted: 9/20/05 at 11:22am

Several years ago I came across a book "Will It Make A Theater" that addresses the specifics that need to be considered in renovating a space but the issues are the same for building a new building. Things like seating layouts, what needs to go in the ceiling and so on. Here is a link for it:
http://store.yahoo.com/americans4thearts/903024.html

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alexpope
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Posted: 9/25/05 at 10:42pm

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. We have quite a lot of the basics, props, costumes, lights, etc., because we do shows in high school auditoriums and virtually anywhere.
    I should probably explain the background to my post a bit--we have difficulty finding places to hold our shows, expecially the smaller ones and dinner theaters, so the organization bought a nicely situated piece of land before my tenure. They also talked to architects, and came up with a concept for the building. After I came on board, I went back to the architects (since their original contact recently passed away), to ask some questions. They were very helpful, but they said that prices for our type of building (steel) had recently risen sharply, and that the original $1.4 million building would now cost $2.5 million, and likely $3 with furniture, kitchen, lighting circuits, etc.
    I thought $1.4 M was reaching, but $3 M is just not do-able. But, being the newbie on the board, I need a lot of very good arguments and evidence to convince the board that I'm right. I researched our area, and estimated charitable giving, etc., but actual experience would be very helpful.
    Anyway, I don't know if this will provoke any new responses, but thanks for those already, and I will look up that book.

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cal23
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Posted: 11/10/05 at 7:50pm

The Imperial Theatre in Pocohontas, Arkansas opened its new theatre building just about a year ago. Cost: $1.9 million plus land. I know they got $800,000 form state and federal government. Kelly Grooms there midwifed the project. Maybe they could help you out.

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Joan54
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Posted: 11/11/05 at 9:12am

Remember that a lot ( if not most) architectural firms charge their fees based on a percentage of the construction costs. It is in their best interest to make the building as expensive as you can bear. Not that they may not be right - I manage a construction company and the costs have indeed risen sharply in recent years. Maybe send the plans out to bid with several construction companies who have experience with the type of building you are planning.

One of our largest bills we pay to operate as a business is liability insurance...I can imagine that the insurance on a theater (open to public etc) is also expensive. Maybe get some quotes on that also.

Make sure that the architectural firm has had the plans reviewed by the local building department and fire marshal. I have some experience designing churches and was surprised by how much I did not know about the building code.

Good luck....I am jealous..I want my own theater sooo badly....just think...never load a truck again!

"behind a thin wall of logic panic is waiting to stampede"

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neale
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Posted: 4/05/06 at 10:32pm

Our CT has used the Junior High stage for many years. It is getting very difficult to use it for a spring play for sure and just about any play and I know they want us out. There is a Historical society in town associated with the Chamber of Commerce. At their request, our board voted to go in with the Historical group. They have a building that needs much work. Up to this point I think each group is waiting on the other to start doing sometning. As soon as the play we are working on now is over, that will be it for the JH. One bad thing is that the agreement reached many years ago stated that any improvements we made to the stage/school would become property of the school. This includes all the lights and on and on so we start from scratch. I havn't found any deep pactets yet. good luck on your efforts. I would like to know the results.

N5EBA

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SunshineWriter
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Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:25pm

A common approach would be to go for a grant. I don't know the success rate on that, but I do know that if you have a strong enough case, like in a court of law, they will give you their attention.
The government grants are the ones I am talking about.

The best way to approach this is to get things into a win-win situation. They win, you win, everyone's happy.

Tell them that you are their answer to a problem they have. State their problem (dying arts in the area, kids running around without dreams, whatever it is), state the solution and how YOU and your company are the solution.

Be prepared for every argument and as a matter of fact, answer their arguments before they even argue them. Find out their concerns and match them to your concerns and show them how you can meet or exceed their concerns.

Good luck!! Big%20smile

Sunny
SunshineWriter

Keep writing, keep shining: A promise, a dream, a great life...

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David McCall
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Posted: 8/17/09 at 1:27pm

I'd be willing to check your drawings and make suggestions. One thing I would like to suggest is that you think more about the future than the present when it comes to tech. Sound, lighting, rigging,etc. can all be bought or rented any time. In your original design think mostly about how you will wire and install other stuff later.

In a theater you have 2 major classes of wires, high voltage and low voltage to and you need to run wires from everywhere to everywhere.

If you have budget for a lot of dimmers (200+) and permanent wiring, then go for it, otherwise be sure you have plenty of power available on camlocks so that you can bring in dimmers and/or buy more later.

I would design open decent sized troughs that you can easily lay cable into and then be able to pull it out after the show. That way you don't have to pay for that much wiring upon building the room.

I'd design in hanging points for left right and center speaker clusters so that you just have to hang the speakers you rent or buy later. Think about how you will get temporary wires to these speakers.

I'd also provide pipes for FOH side and front light and if at all possible, I'd provide catwalks to get to all these positions without lifts or ladders.

I'd provide a good grid backstage for flying stuff, but I might only start with a few line sets, but plan for at least 20 to be installed later. I like to see loading gallery at the top, and it is good to be able to operate the fly from somewhere other than the stage. If you can't afford it now, I'd at least plan for it so the mounting infrastructure is in place. I like to be able to walk on top of the grid to add or move line sets, or put in spot lines on a per show basis. A lot of places don't do that and have to bring in big lifts to do any overhead work.

Consider a real loading dock with room to bring in a big truck, but also consider a ramp for bringing in stuff from street level.

Rental drops are usually at least 20' high so your fly should be at least double that plus 10' or so. Part of that 19' can be in the form of a narrow pit.

A Genie lift is very useful for focusing and rigging.

I'd plan a pit for the orchestra even if it is only 4' deep. I'd rather see it deep enough that it can run under the stage a little.

Id also like to see the idea of putting in a couple traps in the stage floor. The stage floor should be designed top be easily and cheaply replaced. A covering of 1/4" Masonite is very popular.

I'd put in comfortable seats. If your guest aren't comfortable they won't come back. Use enough of a rake that short people can see the stage with a tall person in front of them.

If you are a theater that uses technology to make the audience instead of actors lungs, I would design the room to be acoustically pretty dead. Things that you normally would do acoustically to help get the sound from the stage to the audience just get in the way of electronic sound reinforcement.

You can never have too much backstage space. Wing space is very important, but additional space that is accessible through large doors can also help. These doors should be over 10' high, and at least 10' wide. If you can't afford that space at the beginning, then just put in the foundation and build it later.

I'm sure you get the point. If it can be done later then put it off. Think about all of the stuff you would really like and make sure the architect understands that concept. You can rent or borrow lighting and sound equipment, so it doesn't have to be in the budget for the original building. You will most likely come up short and have to make compromises. Don't let those compromises screw up your future.

David M

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Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Theater Administration :Money Talk

Topic: Building a Theater building( Topic Closed)
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Author	Message
alexpope Walk-On Joined: 9/18/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Topic: Building a Theater building Posted: 9/18/05 at 10:32am
	I'm a board member of a small but well-established CT in Virginia, and we are in the midst of trying to raise capital to build a home for ourselves. We have the land, a perfect spot, but I have misgivings about the what is realistic for us to aim for in terms of a building. My questions are: Has anyone built a building recently, and, if so, how much was it, at least in comparison to your yearly income? Were there hidden pitfalls/costs? How did you raise the money? How easy is it to pay the upkeep expenses for it once constructed? Thanks

	IP Logged

jtonner Star Joined: 2/02/04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 56	Posted: 9/19/05 at 4:33pm
	We have not built a building, still using a high school and soon to be in a renovated city theatre. When you consider a building of your own, the main pitfall is you must do shows. Over the past few years we have had to cancel a couple of shows for a variety of reasons. We hate to do it, but we can since we rent. If you have you own building you have a number of fixed costs to pay, no matter if you do a show or not. This also counts shows you want to do but the rights are pulled. In that case, it has to be replaced with another show, because no show no money. The costs I would look at include, mortgage, Insurance, Utilities, Personnel (will you now need to hire a tech director, box office personnel or a receptionist). These costs will go on no matter what. In addition you will need to know what to do if a problem happens. Who will fix the furnace if it breaks? You will also need to consider your ticket prices. Do they need to go up to cover costs. As you can tell, we have looked into this more than once. These are some of the reasons fewer and fewer groups are getting thier own building these days, it is very expensive. One more thing that may help, see if you can find a theatre consultant that will not charge outrageous amounts to give your group a full list of the pros and cons. Good Luck, John
	John
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Shatcher Celebrity Joined: 2/21/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 251	Posted: 9/19/05 at 5:22pm
	You may want to see if the local arts council wants to be part of the building, that way more than one group will be helping to pay the bills.in addition to the things jtonner listed you need to think about the price of the equipment you will need. Lights and sound will cost a bunch and need to be roughed in before the space is built. When chosing a system like this remember to give yourselves room to grow. You will also need soft goods, seats, storage, shop space, dressing rooms, headsets/intercom, fly space and rigging... This list can get pretty long. also remember all of your equipment will need regular upkeep. I would find a good theatrical supplier to talk to about this stuff. A lot of theatre designers have never worked in a theatre so find some one who knows about the tech systems to work with you. chances are they will think of things you haven't. if you can't find one in your area check with a local university theatre department and see who they use.
	IP Logged

dougb Celebrity Joined: 3/30/04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 148	Posted: 9/20/05 at 11:22am
	Several years ago I came across a book "Will It Make A Theater" that addresses the specifics that need to be considered in renovating a space but the issues are the same for building a new building. Things like seating layouts, what needs to go in the ceiling and so on. Here is a link for it: http://store.yahoo.com/americans4thearts/903024.html
	IP Logged

alexpope Walk-On Joined: 9/18/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 9/25/05 at 10:42pm
	Thanks for the thoughtful responses. We have quite a lot of the basics, props, costumes, lights, etc., because we do shows in high school auditoriums and virtually anywhere. I should probably explain the background to my post a bit--we have difficulty finding places to hold our shows, expecially the smaller ones and dinner theaters, so the organization bought a nicely situated piece of land before my tenure. They also talked to architects, and came up with a concept for the building. After I came on board, I went back to the architects (since their original contact recently passed away), to ask some questions. They were very helpful, but they said that prices for our type of building (steel) had recently risen sharply, and that the original $1.4 million building would now cost $2.5 million, and likely $3 with furniture, kitchen, lighting circuits, etc. I thought $1.4 M was reaching, but $3 M is just not do-able. But, being the newbie on the board, I need a lot of very good arguments and evidence to convince the board that I'm right. I researched our area, and estimated charitable giving, etc., but actual experience would be very helpful. Anyway, I don't know if this will provoke any new responses, but thanks for those already, and I will look up that book.
	IP Logged

cal23 Walk-On Joined: 11/10/05 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 11/10/05 at 7:50pm
	The Imperial Theatre in Pocohontas, Arkansas opened its new theatre building just about a year ago. Cost: $1.9 million plus land. I know they got $800,000 form state and federal government. Kelly Grooms there midwifed the project. Maybe they could help you out.
	IP Logged

Joan54 Celebrity Joined: 10/03/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 207	Posted: 11/11/05 at 9:12am
	Remember that a lot ( if not most) architectural firms charge their fees based on a percentage of the construction costs. It is in their best interest to make the building as expensive as you can bear. Not that they may not be right - I manage a construction company and the costs have indeed risen sharply in recent years. Maybe send the plans out to bid with several construction companies who have experience with the type of building you are planning. One of our largest bills we pay to operate as a business is liability insurance...I can imagine that the insurance on a theater (open to public etc) is also expensive. Maybe get some quotes on that also. Make sure that the architectural firm has had the plans reviewed by the local building department and fire marshal. I have some experience designing churches and was surprised by how much I did not know about the building code. Good luck....I am jealous..I want my own theater sooo badly....just think...never load a truck again!
	"behind a thin wall of logic panic is waiting to stampede"
	IP Logged

neale Walk-On Joined: 4/05/06 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 4/05/06 at 10:32pm
	Our CT has used the Junior High stage for many years. It is getting very difficult to use it for a spring play for sure and just about any play and I know they want us out. There is a Historical society in town associated with the Chamber of Commerce. At their request, our board voted to go in with the Historical group. They have a building that needs much work. Up to this point I think each group is waiting on the other to start doing sometning. As soon as the play we are working on now is over, that will be it for the JH. One bad thing is that the agreement reached many years ago stated that any improvements we made to the stage/school would become property of the school. This includes all the lights and on and on so we start from scratch. I havn't found any deep pactets yet. good luck on your efforts. I would like to know the results.
	N5EBA
	IP Logged

SunshineWriter Walk-On Joined: 1/20/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 1/22/07 at 3:25pm
	A common approach would be to go for a grant. I don't know the success rate on that, but I do know that if you have a strong enough case, like in a court of law, they will give you their attention. The government grants are the ones I am talking about. The best way to approach this is to get things into a win-win situation. They win, you win, everyone's happy. Tell them that you are their answer to a problem they have. State their problem (dying arts in the area, kids running around without dreams, whatever it is), state the solution and how YOU and your company are the solution. Be prepared for every argument and as a matter of fact, answer their arguments before they even argue them. Find out their concerns and match them to your concerns and show them how you can meet or exceed their concerns. Good luck!! Sunny SunshineWriter
	Keep writing, keep shining: A promise, a dream, a great life...
	IP Logged

David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 8/17/09 at 1:27pm
	I'd be willing to check your drawings and make suggestions. One thing I would like to suggest is that you think more about the future than the present when it comes to tech. Sound, lighting, rigging,etc. can all be bought or rented any time. In your original design think mostly about how you will wire and install other stuff later. In a theater you have 2 major classes of wires, high voltage and low voltage to and you need to run wires from everywhere to everywhere. If you have budget for a lot of dimmers (200+) and permanent wiring, then go for it, otherwise be sure you have plenty of power available on camlocks so that you can bring in dimmers and/or buy more later. I would design open decent sized troughs that you can easily lay cable into and then be able to pull it out after the show. That way you don't have to pay for that much wiring upon building the room. I'd design in hanging points for left right and center speaker clusters so that you just have to hang the speakers you rent or buy later. Think about how you will get temporary wires to these speakers. I'd also provide pipes for FOH side and front light and if at all possible, I'd provide catwalks to get to all these positions without lifts or ladders. I'd provide a good grid backstage for flying stuff, but I might only start with a few line sets, but plan for at least 20 to be installed later. I like to see loading gallery at the top, and it is good to be able to operate the fly from somewhere other than the stage. If you can't afford it now, I'd at least plan for it so the mounting infrastructure is in place. I like to be able to walk on top of the grid to add or move line sets, or put in spot lines on a per show basis. A lot of places don't do that and have to bring in big lifts to do any overhead work. Consider a real loading dock with room to bring in a big truck, but also consider a ramp for bringing in stuff from street level. Rental drops are usually at least 20' high so your fly should be at least double that plus 10' or so. Part of that 19' can be in the form of a narrow pit. A Genie lift is very useful for focusing and rigging. I'd plan a pit for the orchestra even if it is only 4' deep. I'd rather see it deep enough that it can run under the stage a little. Id also like to see the idea of putting in a couple traps in the stage floor. The stage floor should be designed top be easily and cheaply replaced. A covering of 1/4" Masonite is very popular. I'd put in comfortable seats. If your guest aren't comfortable they won't come back. Use enough of a rake that short people can see the stage with a tall person in front of them. If you are a theater that uses technology to make the audience instead of actors lungs, I would design the room to be acoustically pretty dead. Things that you normally would do acoustically to help get the sound from the stage to the audience just get in the way of electronic sound reinforcement. You can never have too much backstage space. Wing space is very important, but additional space that is accessible through large doors can also help. These doors should be over 10' high, and at least 10' wide. If you can't afford that space at the beginning, then just put in the foundation and build it later. I'm sure you get the point. If it can be done later then put it off. Think about all of the stuff you would really like and make sure the architect understands that concept. You can rent or borrow lighting and sound equipment, so it doesn't have to be in the budget for the original building. You will most likely come up short and have to make compromises. Don't let those compromises screw up your future.
	David M
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