Can you make a manual winch?
Printed From: Community Theater Green Room
Category: Producing Theater
Forum Name: Set Design and Construction
Forum Discription: Post your questions or suggestions about designing or building a set here.
URL: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4851
Printed Date: 11/23/24 at 4:07pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Can you make a manual winch?
Posted By: Kim L.
Subject: Can you make a manual winch?
Date Posted: 10/25/10 at 6:54pm
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Hi, I've posted before about the lack of flying ability in our theatre. Despite that, I want to "fly" some things from our wire mesh grid-floor over the stage. I have about 22 ft. from the wire mesh floor down to the stage. I then have another 15 ft. or so above the wire mesh floor. I am thinking I would like to rig a few smaller drops (like a 4' x 8' window made out of fabric) to a wire and hand-crank it up by a manual winch (that we operate from the wire mesh floor). I can't seem to figure out the roll drop theory. So, this is my best idea.
I have another scene where I need a sail hanging from the wire mesh that gets unfurled at a particular spot in the musical. If I could make a manual winch (sort of like a bicycle pedal mechanism that is up on the wire mesh floor with wire attached), I think i might be in business. Anyone want to help me figure this out or am I off my rocker???? Thanks! Kim ------------- Kim |
Replies:
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 10/25/10 at 9:01pm
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I think your going to a load of strife with a winch, where it would be easier to just run manillas thru blocks to a tie off piont on the stage, which if need be can be counterweighted as required.
Not sure if your drop is 4' or 8' high, which can make a difference to the amount of cable on the winch drum. Also with flying it is better to have more than one dropper, to reduce swing, sway, twist & fouling.
The mesh over stage floor has me a bit worried, in as much as, is it designed as a floor or only for safety concerns?
Further with the winch is there any auto braking system & ability to lock off the cable when the drop is out or at it's dead.
What comes to mind with the winch is pushing It up Hill with the Nose!  ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: SM_Ted
Date Posted: 10/25/10 at 10:54pm
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Rigging is not a DIY type of thing if you aren't qualified. Please consult a professional. Remember, if lighting goes bad, the show doesn't look good. If sound goes bad, the show doesn't sound good. If rigging goes bad, people can die. |
Posted By: MartyW
Date Posted: 10/26/10 at 8:56am
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That being said... If you just trying to fly a lite weight drop, cloth etc., Joe has given some great insight. If you feel you REALLY need a winch, ones similar to those used on boat trailers are available at most home improvement stores. As far as the roll up is concerned, depending on how wide a space you are trying to fill, I have a recently used trick (of course, professional grade items are available for purchase and rental) I needed to "drop" in and out a white scrim and a drape fabric curtain during scenes from Once Upon a Mattress. The space I wanted to fill was only 12 feet, so this would NOT work for a full stage effect. Anyway, I took a 12 foot carpet roll (the carboard roll that is on the inside of a new roll of carpet) inserted a 14 foot 2x4. Secured the tube to the board with screws. Suspended it above the scene with a pivioting flange on one end and a wheel from a standard clotheline pully on the other. Around the pully I double looped (to provide friction) a continuous loop of clothesline down to a pull point formed by a second pully and a tention spring (to keep it taught when not being pulled) To the cardboard roll I stapled the fabric and to the bottom of the curtain I added enough weight (I used a lite weight pvc pipe.) to keep it taught when extended. It worked quite well (with a little maintinance from time to time over the length of the run)
Not for everyone, but just sharing a trick... ------------- Marty W "Till next we trod the boards.." |
Posted By: vickifrank
Date Posted: 10/26/10 at 12:44pm
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I just talked to a business that would sell a roll drop mechanism up to 18 feet wide. I suspect the price would be reasonable and could be electronic. The only catch would be that the material used would need to be lightweight (the scrim material my company sells is lightweight, which is why I was talking to him)....let me know if you are interested. ------------- _____________ http://www.studio-productions-inc.com 1-800-359-2964 The theater scrim people |
Posted By: Kim L.
Date Posted: 10/26/10 at 6:09pm
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Well, "Sm Ted," you bring up an excellent point. As much as I would love to have beautiful drops flown in (despite not having fly space), if I end up killing an actor, I don't know how well the drop would appeal to the audience. I do have a lightweight drop (4' wide by 8' tall) that may not hurt if the rigging fails. I may give it some thought to put it on a roll drop. But, otherwise, I think I should take your advice and stay away from rigging. Thanks to all!! And thank you Sm Ted for being honest. ------------- Kim |
Posted By: SM_Ted
Date Posted: 10/27/10 at 12:13am
No problem, I'm happy to help. I know I sometimes seem like a naysayer, but I've seen way to much sketchy stuff done by people who don't know any better and have read way too many news articles about injuries and deaths onstage because someone decided to cut a corner and did something they weren't qualified to do. If you think a roll drop is something that could work in your venue, look up the correct construction of an oleo/olio drop. They are easy to construct and work very well. Remember, clothes line hardware doesn't belong anywhere near a stage unless it is rated. If there are no stamps or markings on the hardware (pulleys, blocks, shackles, etc) don't use them. Finding good quality, rated, made in the USA/Canada, gear can take a little more time as most of the big box stores are stocking cheap Chinese stuff because they make a higher profit. Using the cheap junk is fine for tying up your dog, building a fence, or drying your clothes, but keep it away from the theatre. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to post or fire me an email. |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 10/29/10 at 7:42pm
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Kim
Here is an 18th Century 'Roller Drop' which may help you visulise?
http://www1.appstate.edu/orgs/spectacle/photopages/mnrollerdrop.html - http://www1.appstate.edu/orgs/spectacle/photopages/mnrollerdrop.html
Or a modern one;-
http://www.gi-info.com/drop_system_carbon_fiber_tube.html - http://www.gi-info.com/drop_system_carbon_fiber_tube.html ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 11/02/10 at 5:08am
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Good piont Ted on the use of using cheap gear, if one buys rubbish it's a very definate monty you will end with a load of crap.
[Price is forgotten, when quality is remembered.].
Especialy with stage hardware such as castors, pulleys, hindges & flying irons.
In most cases is better to fosic through salvage stores for used kit or even skip surfing on industrial sites, than rely on the ones that come in blister packs.
Like Marty we made up a tumbler oileo] years ago in a few hours & it's still being used today. Excepting we used a PVC storm water [sewage] pipe as the roller drum, along with an extruded Ali tube to suport the plastic pipe & rotating in housed bearings at each end of the Ali tube.
We ran out of time to find a suitable pulley for the hemp haul line, so in desperation made one from wood. It was made up from twood cut out MDF discs, with a reeve of dowels around the circumfrance to hold the discs apart & offer a fair lead for the haul line. The wooden DIY pulley was fixed to the PS [SL] end of the Ali tube. With an endless loop hemp line attached, through a sping tention deck pulley, so as to give a standard BLOFLI [Back Line Out, Front Liine In] hauling process.
It cost very little & I think the most it cost us was for a slab of Emu [beer] for the housed bearings to siut the Ali tube.
What has been a surprise the knocked up wooden pulley is weathered very well & has not needed any maintence done to it.
------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: MartyW
Date Posted: 11/02/10 at 8:18am
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After the English translation, sounds like what we did.. (minus the wood wheel) about the same deal joe... I think its important to differentiate between flying something with weight or density from a great hight and a cloth and cardboard roller drop at 8'... ------------- Marty W "Till next we trod the boards.." |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 11/02/10 at 12:12pm
Your right Marty, I'll refrain from doing that in future!
 Basicly we did the same, except we used PVC pipe instead of a carpet inner roller.
However the roller drop will be probably be hoisted with pulley blocks, to have the ability to set & adjust the aspect of rhe tail baten dead to that of the deck.
Also there is a fair weight in a tail baten & a cloth landing on someone, which may end up with the same result in that of a flown cloth or a compression lift French flats &/or set piece.  ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: MartyW
Date Posted: 11/02/10 at 12:35pm
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Ok, but the figuring out the translations has always been more fun.... ------------- Marty W "Till next we trod the boards.." |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 11/02/10 at 7:52pm
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G'dona! Just as a piont of interest Hywell my old welsh china plate, who I worked with to produce the tumbler, surname happens to be Williamns. So it must be in the genes.  ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |
Posted By: MartyW
Date Posted: 11/04/10 at 10:39am
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Our Williams side is firmly Welsh!... duw a ddarpar ir brain... (God feeds the Raven or God feeds the Williams Family) ------------- Marty W "Till next we trod the boards.." |
Posted By: MartyW
Date Posted: 11/04/10 at 10:40am
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And here's to yoru "best mate"... ------------- Marty W "Till next we trod the boards.." |
Posted By: JoeMc
Date Posted: 11/04/10 at 9:56pm
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Hywell is from Llanelley in Wales & at present is on his third tour of the UK as the Production/tech manager, with the production of 'Just Neol';- http://www.miragecorporation.com/productions/jmsingsnc - John Michael Swinbank Sings Noël Coward They keep being invited back to London to do the production about the life of Noel Coward. Funnily enough Hywell knew my uncle Robert McCabe, who owned an engineering Company in Llanelly & Nancy his wife, who was the daughter of a Llanelly pub owner. Which was Hywell's local pub & watering hole of the Llanelly Rugby Club Hywell used to play for in his youth. Acording to my sister our Aunty Nancy was a twig off the Williams family tree as well, so the old 'less than 6 degrees of seperation' comes into play once more. ------------- [western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!} |