Re-Selling Tickets. We can't do that, can we?
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Category: Theater Administration
Forum Name: Running Your Theater
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URL: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2644
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Topic: Re-Selling Tickets. We can't do that, can we?
Posted By: Fairbanks_Drama
Subject: Re-Selling Tickets. We can't do that, can we?
Date Posted: 9/06/07 at 4:28pm
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Hi all, I'm new to the forum, but I found it because I have a major concern. We are a small CT in Alaska with very firm policies about tickets sales. We have open seating, reserved seats are purchased when they are reserved, a no refunds policy, and we do seat late comers.
At our latest board meeting a problem was brought up: Even though we are selling out performances, we are turning away walk-ups despite physically empty seats (empty because of late arrivals and no shows). We are in Alaska so weather, distance from the theatre and (for one incident with one of our big supporters) moose have a tendancy to cause occasional late arrivals. The solution that seemed to have the strongest support from the board was to, at curtain time, sell off any reserved empty seats to walk ups. Any late arriving people with reserved tickets would either be turned away or have to RE-Purchase a ticket.
I am terribly concerned that this policy will alienate our supporters and potential supporters, make life hell for our ticket sellers that have to remind late comers "you snooze, you lose," and possibly even be illegal. Help me answer these concerns if you can:
1) Is this legal?
2) Is there any sort of precedent for this sort of thing from other community theatres?
3) If there is pecedent, what happened? Did it work? Did it fail?
I need to know if I'm worrying too much about our audience or if our board isn't worrying enough. I'd appreciate any input anyone has on the subject. Thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/06/07 at 9:33pm
In my unqualified opinion the board & theatre is tort fesence [wrong doer] in the agreement. Therefore by selling the seat again, they are double dipping. Then further adding insult to injury, by demanding the punter pays for a seat again to the same performance, as a penalty for being late. Without offering a comp to another performance, if the house is sold out for the rest of the season, one to a future season or in extenuating circumstances a refund should be made.
Upon selling a ticket, be it prepaid or otherwise, the Group enters into a contract with the punter to provide a seat & a whole performance. Therefore that a seat should be available for the whole or part thereof, be the punter late or choses not to use it. If it is not made available at the performance, the group has breached the contract.
So I think they need to consult a legal eagle &/or the local consumer protection authority, for advice & guidance - to think it out again!
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Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
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Posted By: biggertigger
Date Posted: 9/06/07 at 10:37pm
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Joe is partly correct on this information. First off, you need to make it clear that the information of seats and tickets. Ultimately, yes you can sell a seat if the current purchaser does not make an attempt to arrive at the designated time. (Airlines do this all the time.)
First you need to clearly state that ticket holders must arrive by a certain time and that if they fail to show at this time their seat can be sold. You do not have to reimburse for the seat if you can accomidate them for another seat and/or another performance.
Yes, you enter into a contract, but a contract has to be met on both sides. It is important that this information is clearly stated in both writing and verbally.
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The two greatest days in a theater persons life, the day you start a new show and the day the damn thing closes.
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Posted By: Kathy S
Date Posted: 9/07/07 at 12:26am
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The opinion stated by biggertigger may be correct...I wouldn't know because I am not a legal authority... but whether or not it is legal, I don't think it's very nice, do you? to sell the seat that somebody has already purchased but was too late to claim? I think if you had a policy which stated "we will not seat late comers" you might have a better footing for going ahead with re-selling the ticket a second time at the last minute, if you think that's something you want to be doing.... I know the airlines do it, but does that make it something we want to do to OUR customers. Come on, folks! We LOVE our customers! Still that doesn't mean we have to let them walk all over us or do everything THEIR way -- make them wait until the opening song is over to seat them when they show up, but don't sell their seat just because they had a run in with a moose or held up by a long train or a slow waitress or a sick baby...
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Posted By: Topper
Date Posted: 9/07/07 at 1:16am
I know of several theaters that practice a "Student Rush" policy wherein they will sell off any seat not reserved or sold 5-10 minutes before curtain. These seats are sold first come, first served (parties are often split up as only single seats remain) and the price is greatly reduced.
This is a lot like travelling "standby" at the airport. There is often a long line of hopefuls waiting to get a seat -- any seat -- at a reduced price.
I have never heard of re-selling an empty seat that has already been purchased or reserved by another party. You said so yourself that " weather, distance from the theatre and ... moose have a tendancy to cause occasional late arrivals" and therefore late arrivals seem to be EXPECTED in your area.
I, for one, would be furious to discover my seat had been resold after battling the elements and wild beasts only to arrive a few minutes late to the theater.
While offering these latecomers a full refund might not be necessary (or fiscally feasible), it would be the polite thing to do. Offering them another seat for another performance is also polite -- but not necessary. (If nature and distance are such obstacles, returning another day might not even be possible for some customers). Establishing a firm "No Refunds" policy is important, and if the seat goes empty for whatever reason, at least the theater has received income for the ticket price.
If the ticket had been purchased in advance (by credit card or check), then holding onto these items -- and not processing them -- until AFTER curtain time might be an optional policy. As long as you make clear to the purchaser that unclaimed seats (ie 15 -30 minutes before curtain) will be resold, this gives you the option of returning the money and re-selling the empty seats to patrons who are eager and available to see the performance.
Selling the same seat twice does not seem legal nor ethical. Forcing these late-comers to re-purchase (pay twice) to see the same show only adds insult to injury.
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"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone
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Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/07/07 at 2:56am
The airlines are under federal law &/or International conventions. But state law can differ widely from state to state. as indeed does ours.
I believe this situation would ultimately be under their states consumer or whatever a similar state legislation it would be enacted under.
On the other hand here while based on the British Westminster system,which in a lot of ways is poles apart from yours, in more ways than just geographicly. Although I feel it is generic that not only is Justice to be done, but more importantly, seen to be done!
I know some of the local larger venues do have rules & implied policy regulations, fine printed on the backs of each ticket, which reads like most legal gobleddy gook.In an atempt to protect their back sides in any & all crap fight. Even so in all forms of contracts, they can't make a deal outside the law. Further as there are 3 basic kinds of contracts in order of importance, that being written, verbal & implied, depending on how it came into being, goes a long way to affording how it stands up in court.
But lets face it, as mentioned, should not our catch cry be a question of "What are we all about'? Rather than a battle whine of 'This is how we do it!'
It amazes me when theatre groups strive & stretch their resources to get the bums on seats, then like a chook with it''s head missing, charging about in ever reducing circles, go out of their way in making the whole effort a waste!
{Isn't this one of the reasons why the dodo bird became extinct, or was it the 'Awk Awk' Bird?}
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Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
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Posted By: jayzehr
Date Posted: 9/07/07 at 6:40am
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What we used to do in our small theater was to simply take reservations over the phone. No one paid for their ticket until they arrived. We only promised to hold the tickets until five minutes before curtain. Then we would sell the tickets to anyone that was waiting. I don' t remember there ever being a problem.
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Posted By: MartyW
Date Posted: 9/07/07 at 8:27am
Legal or not, nice or not.. This is what we do. In our brochures and sales information (as well as posted in our "Lobby") is a statement that Tickets are held for five minutes before curtain. Then those on the waiting list are seated. Should the no show actuallyl show before the curtain, we will do our best to seat them. Even if it means a folding chair or an invite to the directors booth. I don't think it has been a huge issue, concidering the number of years we have been doing it (at least 10 that I know of) If our Boxoffice Chair logs on, maybe he can elaborate. (also a member here)
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Marty W
"Till next we trod the boards.."
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Posted By: biggertigger
Date Posted: 9/07/07 at 10:15pm
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Just to point out a few things in my original statement.
First off, this is the similarity of airlines that re-sell seats, not the law.
Secondly, five minutes before curtain is sufficient time for a person to arrive, anytime aftwards then original patron should have all means to accomidate this person. I believe I said that other seats, future tickets to this show, or future tickets to other shows was acceptable. If these accomidations could not be met, then a full refund is warranted.
If weather and Mooses (or is it Meeses?) are the problem, then a patron should allow for these problems to properly make a show in a timely manner.
Now, I do realize that things happen so every situation depends on the back ground to properly handle the situation.
I simply wrote that they could re-sell tickets to a show when this practice is made public in writing. This information should clearly state the policy and the way to handle compensation.
As others have pointed out, they do re-sell seats and explain how they handle the situation.
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The two greatest days in a theater persons life, the day you start a new show and the day the damn thing closes.
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Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/08/07 at 8:00am
Sorry Biggertigger, I must of misunderstood your post.
I presumed it was sort of a comparison of the practice, employed by the airlines.
I know when this practice started to creep in quite a few years ago. A high profile personage or at least with a belief in his own publicity. Attempted to bring about a summons & sue the airline. But the summons I had to refuse to issue, up on a chambers decision. On the grounds that the practice was sanctioned under the RPT flight rules of the Civil Aviation Act.
Therefore the summons lapsed as it was not legal.
However as a Justice I ended up wearing the all the abuse from this pratt & his Solicitor. It was quite a to do ducking the spitting dummies. because he missed his overseas connection or what ever & it caused him damages. Anyhow he apparently, later on, so I believe. Was detained at the airport Customs. For attempting to leave the country with more than the legal amount of currency. He certainly reaped that lot!
But from what I hear he was very meek & mild, it's strange how attitudes change when their caught with their pants down!
At least it was not skin & hair flying like the last hearing I sat on the bench for, many years ago, at the airport. It was for a similar reason except the person was of the fairer genderer & was/is a more famous star. With longer claws & fangs - but that's all another story!
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Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
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Posted By: Kibitzer
Date Posted: 9/24/07 at 12:16pm
Anytime moose are a factor in the production and presentation of any art, special considerations must be made.
Many of us, myself included, use the airline ticket comparison to theatre seats. Here's the problem I now have with it: at a certain time, the door shuts and the plane leaves. If you're late, you can't run down the runway and expect the plane to stop and let you on board! The theatre seat, on the other hand, is still accessible no matter how late the patron is.
And I don't think we're going to be better off to think of theatre tickets more like hotel rooms. Although they aren't going anywhere, there may be penalties if you try to cancel a reservation and once you paid for the room, they don't care if you stay in it or not.
One suggestion I have is to leave it up to your patron. Let your subscribers know that there are often people who don't get to see shows and if they are not going to show up, please notify the theatre. In this day and age of cell phones, even a moose detained patron may be able to call and say they're running a little late. (I don't want to ignore the possibility that if moose are involved, there is the issue of remote regions with no cell phone reception.) But patrons may also call and say they can't make it and give you permission to re-sell their seats. In return, if you are an established non-profit organization, you can offer them a tax receipt for their donation.
What is important here is what someone has already pointed out: you must be clear about your policies and they must be written. My bottom line on this: That seat has been "rented" for that show and if the "renter" chooses not to use it, that's their business. But they may choose to "sublet" and you can be there to help them with that.
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"Security is a kind of death." - Tennessee Williams
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Posted By: TonyDi
Date Posted: 2/06/08 at 8:38am
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VERY interesting question and equally interesting answers. On this issue - the company I've worked with for the last 20 years (and THEY have been in business for 55 years) have ALWAYS done it this way. Like many, we sell season tickets to subscribers (pre-paid at a discounted rate) - a limited portion of the house OR as many as we CAN sell. Though that number is never going to fill the house as season ticket holders (who go for prime seats and then new potential subs look at the seating chart and decide against doing it that way) we never have a problem with the house being ALL season ticket holders. NEVER has happened in the 55 years they've been there.
The rest of the house - we take PHONE reservations and the information is gathered up until the day of a performance (big job - we hired a company who does that locally). At any rate, we ALSO ADVERTISE what our policy is with ticket sales. If someone reserves a seat (and has NOT paid for it - the majority of the seats in the house) then as others have said, 5 mintues before the show starts, any walk-ins who want to be on a waiting list (and who wait till they see if they can get in) are offered those tickets at the regular price. If a season ticket holder who HAS paid for a ticket to "reserve" a specific seat - either chooses NOT to show up or is late (after the show starts) we have the right to resell that seat if we want to make the money - even though it is double-dipping to a degree (though season tickets are usually at a reduced rate for the season). Is that morally wrong or not - don't know?? But it's business as usual for the last 50 some odd years. And we ALWAYS find them a seat if they choose to stay or change their desired reservation (day and seat) to another day to accommodate as much as we can.
This dredges up another question that some have already alluded to - is LATE-COMERS to the show. TWO WAY CONTRACT is MY personal viewpoint as well. It really angers me that people - regardless of MOOSE, or any other natural phemonenon, don't have the ADULT RESPONSIBILITY of making sure they leave in plenty of time to arrive to the theater before a show starts - KNOWING what the problems potentially could be - if they've seen a moose cross the road before. I just think in MOST cases that occurs - it's RUDE and should not be rewarded or condoned by giving in. The opera house here in town - does Broadway touring shows. If you're late to a performance (and $50 - $90 a ticket) you usually DO NOT get in until the first break, scene change or intermission. THAT is PROFESSIONAL theater and might be harsh but it's how THEY do business. I think if you don't plan your time and your life better than that, you have no business walking into the theater and disrupting everyone else's enjoyment while you're crawling all over them to your seat when THEY were on time. Sorry - might be harsh but that's the way it is in my book. AND I almost ALWAYS NEVER start a show late - ever. If people aren't in their seats at the ADVERTISED, TRADITIONAL and WELL KNOWN curtain time - too bad.
Anyway, what is right - legally? Don't know - I don't think there IS any particular precedent for it unless someone were to push the issue. And after 55 years they've NEVER EVER been challenged on it. Maybe it's a thing with non-profit organizations as CT is. AND we report ALL income to the TAX people anyway - so it's not like we're not reporting it. So I don't know. BUT THIS IS an interesting question and I'll continue to watch to see if others have legal answers on this subject. By the way our treasurer - or former treasurer for nearly 40 some odd years - was a lawyer and a tax accountant so I guess he knew!
Interesting indeed.
TonyDi
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"Almost famous"
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