Canned Music
Printed From: Community Theater Green Room
Category: Producing Theater
Forum Name: Other Topics
Forum Discription: For everything else
URL: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2618
Printed Date: 11/24/24 at 12:36am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Canned Music
Posted By: MartyW
Subject: Canned Music
Date Posted: 8/30/07 at 9:07am
|
I know there has been some discussion on this in the past, but can we do it again? What are the limitations? Is there special equipment required? What are the legal ramifications? Where is the source? I am scheduled to do "The King and I" this year and can't seem to find a music director/orchestra for the time slot. Is there a source for this? Help.. Educate me!
Thanks
-------------
Marty W
"Till next we trod the boards.."
|
Replies:
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 8/30/07 at 9:52am
|
You can get a lot of authorised musicals as karioke
backing tracks.
Here is one supplier in Oz, but if you conntact the
rights holder, I'm sure they would have rehearsal & show CD's
available.
http://broadwaybest.com.au/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_107&products_id=1036 - http://broadwaybest.com.au/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_107&products_id=1036
-------------
Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
|
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 8/31/07 at 8:22am
Marty have a look at this site;-
http://www.custombroadwaymidi.net/forum/ - http://www.custombroadwaymidi.net/forum/
They will produce a midi & even advise if there is another group
doing K&I to look at sharing the costs. The forum, but
they could advise on wether there is a licence fee for using the midi
each time.
-------------
Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
|
Posted By: Theatrestation
Date Posted: 8/31/07 at 10:45pm
|
Some houses require at least one "live" instrument to perform their shows. Tams-Witmark has it right in the signed agreement.
-------------
http://www.castbuilding.com
http://www.theatrestation.com
|
Posted By: drose
Date Posted: 9/01/07 at 1:49am
|
Take a look at Realtime Music Solutions website. They have two systems called OrchExtra and InstrumentalEase (same system, just billed under different names for MTI and RnH Theatricals). They are full orchestra performance systems designed to supplement a small band (we used it as our sole musical source and were very pleased with it, but it is actually designed to round out a thin or smaller live instrumental base.) Its a little spendy, but well worth the money. It consists of a laptop (pre-programmed) and a midi keyboard. The program can do just about anything that a live instrument can do. I can't even begin to give you all the details. The tecnology is called Sinfonia and you can check it out at http://www.rms.biz - www.rms.biz . The shows available are still pretty limited, but they are adding more all the time. We used Cinderella and were thrilled with it. Their support staff was great...at the rate I'm going, I oughta get a commission! But seriously, we couldn't have been happier with it, it's an amazing bit of software. They told me that K&I is the next on the list, so it may be ready by your show dates. My contact is Kirk Bailey at mailto:Kirk@rms.biz - Kirk@rms.biz . I'm sure he can give you the information you need.
|
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/01/07 at 2:58am
The first time I experianced recorded music to reinforce a small 5
piece band to sound like a 21 piece orchestra. Was when I worked on
'Disney on parade'. Which was performed in a big top through out Oz.
The music was on reel to reel tape, which was played in sterio & a
metronome was superimposed on part of the tape. {How was achieved I'm
not sure as it was all just about valves, wire & sticky tape in
those days}
But the conductor only could hear the metronome beat in one ear & the
taped music in the other, while wearing cans. I suppose this was a way
of ensure the band was in the same beat & tempo with the orchestra,
just in case the taped stretched with the heat in the Big Chapoe.
I was on a 'Lime' within a few feet of the canvas roof & I was
being stretched, must have lost 10 litres of sweat per show. The pulpit
was slung on to one of the tent poles, I sweated virtualy a puddle of
water. Tended to worry as some of the punters underneath looked
up with a worried vacant look checking for rain. [At least I
think they hoped it was rain & not something else?]
But the funniest was a show back in the 60's called 'Instant Marrage'
writen by some bod localy. Which we did with taped music for the first
time. It was in the midle of summer & it must have been
140 in the water bag, for most of the season. The bio box was in a very
small room with no ventilation under a tin roof, which was part
of the roof viod. I was actualy performing song & dance in those
days. Nearly every time I was in the middle of a particular lovvie
dovvie
wobble, the tape would stretch & the girl I was singing it to would
always
start the giggles. Which in turn would get the punters cackling, at the
my strangle mouth movements trying to match the song to the
music. Naturaly being a trouper I caried on
regardless. At least untill I couldn't hold it in any longer, so I
relieved my self by going up! [As one does of course]
Thank gawd for CD's & I don't tread the boards any longer.
The beauty of your own software & midi set up, is with shows which
have dialogue dispersed with the vocals/music. Is it can be split
on to seperate tracks, so the techie on the music cue can switch to the
next track, after the dialogue. I think we had 5 such cues & used 11 or so
seperate tracks for one song.
-------------
Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
|
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/01/07 at 12:12pm
Something I forgot to mention. while I was woffling on & on.
Even though using karioke or software which cuts out the vocals on
musical recordings, may seem to be a great solution. By purchasing the
record & the software or midi, even if it is said to be authorised.
This does not mean it can be used in a performance, without gaining
permission & if allowed, pay the fees of course for doing so. {But
I'd say you would have two chances - none & Buckleys, as for
the ameatre group it would not get a look in.}
So unless the rights holders have rehearsal & show cd's available,
your up the creek without a paddle. Primarily because the rights holder
for perfomance licence, is normally not the authorised holder for
recording, video &/or film.
I think if you chance it be prepared to suffer fo doing it.
Frankly I would bite hard on the bullet & find an MD &/or
musicain to accompany - pull the pin on the K&I & find another
musical.
-------------
Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
|
Posted By: drose
Date Posted: 9/01/07 at 2:48pm
|
Realtime Music Solutions works with RnH Theatricals (who hold the rights for K&I) and MTI. Their Sinfonia software is marketed as AccompanEase with RnH and as OrchExtra with MTI. You must have contracted for the given show, in this case K&I with RnH Theatricals to be able to use (legally) the Sinfonia system. RnH in fact was promoting it in their newsletter, Happy Talk, in January or February 2007. Sinfonia is not just the music with the vocal tract cut out, it is each single instrumental part programmed to play. If you have an accompanist, a bass, and a flute live (not that anyone would have that combination, but this is for example only so bear with me), you can silence those voices in the software and just have it play the rest of the orchestral parts. The person on the midi can control tempo, transpositions, cut and paste for realtime errors...essentially they can follow anything that the conductor instructs. If a singer skips a verse you can insta-vamp and then pick up at whatever measure the conductor instructs. Repeats, holds...you name it. We used it without any live musicians. My sound guy programmed the show and set our parameters (just personalizing the tempos and pauses, minimizing the incidental music for set changes) and "ran" the show from the sound table, adjusting the orchestration as needed for the the actors daily re-interpretation of tempo (yes that was a little sarcastic, we had some timing issues..is 4/4 really so hard...) My biggest piece(s) of advice: know all the don't from the operation manuel, KNOW HOW TO RUN THE SHOW FROM THE LAPTOP FUNCTION KEYS AS WELL AS THE MIDI KEYBOARD (it saved our rear when we accidentaly did a "don't ever do this" on opening nite), and finally, have someone with musical experience run the software - it will save you hours of frustration. I tried to run it, but it would have taken me days to get the gist of it. Its hard if you aren't familiar with musical notation (the software is programmed straight from the full score, but with no personal nuance) But for even an amatuer musician its a piece of cake. It was great, a little spendy, easy, and legal.
|
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/02/07 at 1:57am
G;donya drose & thanks I didn't realise that these royalty house
had software available in conjunction with a liceced musical/concert
from thier stables.
I sent a pm to Marty with a link to a software mob, who has supposedly
perfected being able to drop out the vocals from any recording, to make
your own kareoke recordings.
However by using this set up it opens a can of worms legaly, when it
comes to actual peformances. Because there are so many individual
interlectual royalty interests on near every recording, it becomes a
mine field;-
http://www.make-your-own-karaoke.com/backingtracksdownload.htm?gclid=CO37lr3ivI0CFRK1YgoduS10LQ - http://www.make-your-own-karaoke.com/backingtracksdownload.htm?gclid=CO37lr3ivI0CFRK1YgoduS10LQ
We used 'Cake walk' but it would be well & truly out of date now.
-------------
Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
|
Posted By: TonyDi
Date Posted: 9/05/07 at 7:00am
|
As I understand it - and this is only hearsay on my part - those software programs that are supposed to remove the vocals only do a partial job - in that certain frequencies are blocked. BUT in so doing, you lose some of the music too which might occupy some of those same frequencies. PART of the problem lies in the fact that on CD's, records or tapes, the individual studio channels or tracks have been mixed down to a couple of tracks (stereo tracks or such) and therefore in trying to remove certain VOICE frequencies you're bound to lose a lot of music too. PLUS the fact that from what I understand, it's never totally removed from a CD, tape or recording and never can be...just mainly minimized a lot at the expense of much of the fidelity and the music itself. Now then on the software and tracks the companies are creating they CAN keep the tracks separated and thus you're able to remove effectively anything you want to have played LIVE. BECAUSE they're computerized and that's the only place you can remove any individual tracks unless they have a TAPE system with multiple individual tracks that can be muted. BUT the tracks MUST be created where you can do that and most CD's, tapes or recordings that can't happen because of having been mixed down to a couple of stereo tracks.
Using the tracks created by those who do midi sequencing is legal and legit - or at WORST a GRAY AREA that has yet to be challenged, litigated or having had legal precedent created through any lawsuits - which as far as I know has never happened with the people I know who do midi sequencing for a living. The theater company pays the royalties and the rights to do the show and in so doing the use of backing tracks is legitimized for the most part because often they are not complete reproductions of the score - although those who do it - use the scores to create them. Often they are embellished, nuanced and altered slightly such that the tracks become the sequencers INTERPRETATION of the music as written. Someone said some contracts require at least one (or more) live players to accompany the backing tracks. And that's true - sometimes they do. However one guy I know is in the pit running the sequences from his mobile setup and therefore it's HIS performance of the tracks and thus is covered in that regard. Again though, as long as the theater company pays for the rights to do the show, rents the scores, pays the royalties - in most every case I've ever heard or seen, they're covered completely without incident.
And one of my friends who does this has been doing this as his only business - well along with music directing and so forth - for over 25 years and has made a reasonable living doing it....without ANY question as to what he's doing as a midi sequencer doing shows using backing tracks.
Just some thoughts on the subject. Don't know how right or wrong - just basing it on those I know who have done it, are still doing it and who have never had ANY legal issues with which to deal in this regard. I mean if people pay for the rights to the show, the royalites and rent the scores, but cannot afford to pay a full orchestra, then they ought to be glad people are doing their musicals and keeping them popular. NOTICE they eventually came out with their own backing tracks long after other independent artists were doing them - and they finally decided it's another method to make more money from those who want to do their musicals. And it has NOT been all that long that they have done that. SO far as I know, it's legal and legit unless otherwise completely spelled out in a contract and none I know of are doing that....yet.
TonyDi
-------------
"Almost famous"
|
Posted By: Gaafa
Date Posted: 9/06/07 at 6:59am
A very good argument Tony Di.
i don't know how it would float or for how long?
You have convinced me but I'm as important as a fart in the wind &
would only become noticeable, if it followed into the car.
I read a couple of previous licences which make it generaly pionted, that to make or use a recording, is not allowed.
Maiinly because the script roghts house normally don't handle the recording, video or film rights.
But i like your idea & it's possibly the way it should be viewed,
that those producing the midi are in fact musicains & if they gain
permission to make a recording of the music, then the they hold
the intelectual property rights to his/her recording. Played by a
live articipher for the show - this might be why the rights houses
don't want to bring it to a head by litigation ' by letting sleeping
dogs lie!
By jove by george by jeeves!
Maybe BDM, Stuart [Lazy Bee] or Dave [P&M] may be a ble to shed light on the this.
-------------
Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}
|
Posted By: TonyDi
Date Posted: 9/10/07 at 7:09am
|
Well you know Joe, I DO understand the issues surrounding rights yet there are at least 3 people I've seen (and I KNOW there are MANY MANY more) who do this for a living. And they've all been doing it for many years this way. Oddly, the one guy says that as long as the theater company pays for the rights to do the show/musical that they have in essence paid for the rights to have it performed musically any way that it's possible for them to do it. This guy and one other I'm aware of, have online sites for this purpose and I THINK in some instances have even paid licensing fees themselves for some things - to be able to "sell" copies of (I think up to 500 copies allowed for a set fee). But when doing shows that some theater company has paid for the rights to produce, they've done dozens of shows that way. I'm assuming, knowing ONE of them PERSONALLY, that he knows his way around copyrights and performing rights to do what he does with the midi - and he's BEEN doing it for 25 years or more now. Of course he often is "in the pit" with his sound setup but he's also done shows for theater companies in other countries, and throughout the US via mail alone - on CD's or whatever formats are available (i.e. tape, mini disc, CD, reel-to-reel, computer) whatever has been in use over the years. HOW these people that do this get away with it I can only guess they've worked out the details and know the system and what it allows them to do.
Wish I knew definitively. I mean if you cannot afford an orchestra and the company doesn't offer - much less license MIDI backing tracks - then I guess it's OK to do whatever it takes. And with the equipment some of these folks have these days as well as even SOFTWARE that's available (usually pretty high priced) I mean you can nuance the heck out of a midi file and yes, replace a live orchestra. I will NOT say (anymore) that the "sound" of a live orchestra is better because let me tell you that the last time I saw Phantom or Les Mis - BOTH used MINIMAL numbers of live players but a heck of a lot of keyboards and computers. Frankly even touring companies cannot afford live musicians in the pit anymore. And electronics have come a LONG way for sounding real. I even have a program on one of my computers that uses SAMPLED priceless orchestral instruments i.e. Strad violins, violas, cellos, Steinway pianos, Guarneri stringed instruments, top line professional woodwinds, brass and an incredible host of percussion things. As well there is a new program out there that you can type in TEXT (modified in a specific fashion) that uses SAMPLED human voices that can SING BACKGROUNDS OR ANYTHING you type in replacing the need for singers even. And it's not bad. There are some oddities but they keep improving the software all the time so it WILL eventually replace singers too. AMAZING stuff.
ANYway, I said all that to say this - I GUESS whomever does this midi sequencing for a living and has made a business out of it, does have the inside scoop on the restrictions or lack thereof to be able to do this. I wish I could feel comfortable doing it. I've done it myself for two shows compared to their dozens and dozens of shows - usually they also keep up with the current musicals because they get hired to sequence them. So I guess it's legal otherwise they're just "getting away with it" and not being queried about it.
Maybe you're right - the rights owners see it as a battle too expensive and too pointless to pursue. Interesting ideas though.
TonyDi
-------------
"Almost famous"
|
|