If it is any help, we have a 176 seat theater, and the people hardle wear make-up (unless we have to).  I have worked in bigger theatrical settings though, where minimal use has been nessesary.  Don't use too much, you'll (or the cast would look like a drag Queen).  Unless that is the desired effect that you need.

P

I was broken-hearted when Bob Kelly dropped doing his makeup line.  LOVED that stuff and used it for years.  He still does the wig company as I understand but the makeup is no longer to be had.  Sad day it was when I heard that. 

Anyway the person you're referring to is LEE BAYGEN by name. GREAT makeup artist - responsible for one of the best books on advanced prosthetic makeup in the business.  Sort of the ONLY one and most thorough books on the subject.  I know he has experience in theater too.  But every makeup artist has their own LEARNED theories about it because it is a learned craft which demands that whatever you do with a makeup project is relative to the theater in which you're working.  I don't know about the 5th row issue - because as you say - what if the theater only has 5 rows.  I have my opinions about that...read on.

As a makeup artist trained by Dick Smith - the godfather of modern special makeup effects (Academy Award for his Salieri character in Amadeus) - I disagree that 13 year old boys or ANYONE for that matter needs to go too far with makeup for stage.  I have done this work and study for almost 50 years and I'm here to tell you that most makeup work I've seen on stage is FAR TOO MUCH, poorly done (sadly it's not taught well by anybody for the most part), and it always looks like people used crayons and house painting brushes to apply it!!  Oh and DON'T EVEN get me started on SILVER HAIRSPRAY. We just DON'T WANT to go into that one.

My contention has always been that if it doesn't look legitimate within a few feet, I don't care how much you THINK you know how to do makeup, it WILL NOT look right onstage.  Now I WILL grant you that you have to do a LITTLE BIT MORE for huge theaters, but for my tastes most of what I've seen done by other people has ALWAYS BEEN TOO MUCH.  Men or boys have NO BUSINESS wearing any color eye shadow, mascara, blush or anything but very basic natural colors.  Now darkening the eyebrows is fine, lining the eyes CAREFULLY with a pencil (usually only the upper lid and a MINOR bit on the bottom - but hardly none at all there) and using a bit darker colors to deepen the eyes CAN be used if done judiciously.  Lining the eyes should NOT be done in BLACK EYEBROW OR LINER pencil IF their natural hair and eye color is NOT black.  Yet everyone I see do that uses a black eyeliner or brow pencil - even blonde actors!!!  You should use colors that are compatible and sensible with your skin and hair coloration to begin with.  But boys don't need much at all.  IT depends upon the skin tone and how much light there is.

MOST of the time, if a lighting designer is using warmer color gels, then 90% of the people on stage hardly need much color at all - job is largely done.  Good shades of amber or similar color gels make anybody look better than they even do in person.  Women don't need much these days beyond standard street makeup taken a little tiny bit heavier - but not into what I call high fashion range.  These OLD SCHOOL ideas of the heavy makeup are precipitated upon the ideas of what they HAD to do in the olden days of theater where lighting was nothing compared to what it is today - and sadly it's never been taught well enough to bring people "up to date" with modern techniques in view of improved lighting as well as improved makeup products.  Many women I've worked with usually always do too much as well and come off looking like street-walkers to me.  Again FAR too much.  As well these old-school idea like the white dots at the corners of the eyes (or red) or the white line down the center of the nose - hogwash.  I'm sorry - I've been at this far too long and heard it all.  But boys or men need to only have enough makeup done to look alive including blush (I know what I said) BUT in colors like BRONZE or other more earthen tones - avoiding reds and most other colors.  The bronze gives the skin a healthy glow without making males look like pretty little girls.  Believe me - I know.

THAT IS THE PRIMARY reason I learned to do my own makeup.  And no-one has ever done it for me since I was 14 or 15.  And it's the reason I went to great lengths to get trained.  AND it's THE VERY REASON I'm writing a PRACTICAL, step-by-step, EASY TO FOLLOW, ACCURATE theater makeup book.  I have just about every theater makeup book - including ALL 9 EDITIONS OF CORSONS (Best by far) that are out there for sale.  AND MOST of them are garbage. I just got a new one by some "costumer" who teaches in some college in the mid-west and it's total CRAP!!!  I've never seen such junk in my life.  And it's what has pushed me over the edge and spurred me on to start writing this book. I've had it with the lack of education in this regard.  I've tried - unsuccessfully - to offer makeup seminars to the local theater companies, schools and colleges.  And you know what - VERY LITTLE RESPONSE.  PLUS the companies I HAVE worked for I've always run into actors who always say - "oh I do my own makeup"....and then when I see what it is they do - it's laughable at best.  The LACK of training in this regard is atrocious and the VERY few places that teach it (colleges) do not give a whole lot of emphasis to doing it much less HOW to do it well - beyond the "history of".  And that's sad.  Yet every actor practically I have met, always says they know how - just because they might have a copy of Corson's book or had their obligatory one or two semesters of required classes about it - but I doubt they ever read their Corson books much because of the sad results I've seen.

Sorry if I rant.  This has been a total pet peeve of mine for the better part of these 50 years and I'm sick of seeing CRAP makeup work being done and people spouting how much they know how to do it when they don't.  I KNOW this will make ME sound like an arrogant, pompous, makeup snob and I'm NOT - I swear.  I just know what I'm doing when it comes to this and can't seem to get other people to realize they don't - when they don't.  I HAVE run into other makeup artists or actors who ARE accomplished in this craft as well and I always have a wonderful time sharing war stories with those folks - it is refreshing to find someone once in a while who does impressive makeup work.  NOT saying you don't know Red Diva - if you've had Lee Baygan as an instructor - he's WELL qualified and high on my list of accomplished makeup artists and I'm sure you learned a lot.  HOWEVER his book is geared more to the more advanced prosthetic creation side of makeup work for film, TV or some application in stage work - though I know he has the background in stage makeup as well.

MY RECOMMENDATION - buy Corson's BOOK any edition, READ IT!!! READ IT AGAIN!!! NEVER STOP PRACTICING.  The mirror is they guide - up close and personal.  I've always said to someone who asked - when the question came up with ANY makeup job (though often AGE makeup specifically) if it looks legitimate and real up close within a few feet, it will look legitimate at the back of the house. For instance, if an actor has to portray an older person (and isn't old themselves) then if the makeup looks real close up, then the people viewing it from farthest away will be convinced.  WHY, may you ask, is that?  Well I always refer to the fact that if an actor of 75 is playing the role - he or she will look 75 from anywhere in the theater.....because they ARE 75.  SO if an actor who is 45 does a makeup job to age them up to 75 AND it looks REAL AND LEGIT within a few feet, they WILL LOOK 75 on stage from anywhere in the house.  And it's the SAME WITH ANY MAKEUP WORK. If it works up close, it will sell anywhere in the audience (knowing you HAVE to do a little bit heavier but not beyond all sense).  BUT you MUST KNOW HOW to do that.  You REALLY HAVE to become an artist - in the sense of knowing ARTISTIC concepts, techniques and processes. This is not unlike being a portrait artist and requires the same attention to detail and technique to do.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I've had it with pussyfooting around actors or others who SAY they know how to do theater makeup - only for it to be as laughable as can be in the resultant end product.  I've seen FAR too much of it.  And I just get on the soapbox everytime the subject is broached or discussed with misinformation.  So I'll quit now and shut up.  Anyone wants to know my credentials can ask....if anyone cares one way or the other.

First of all, TonyDi, I agree with you totally about Bob Kelly leaving the makeup line.  I was absolutely devoted to his products (creme sticks were my favorite).  I bought up a bunch of makeup while it was still available and use it exclusively.

Secondly, I realize that Mr. Baygen's (thanks for the correction on the spelling.  I wasn't sure.) advice would be best applied to a large house.  I did question what one did in a theatre with only 5 rows.

Most of my knowledge in makeup comes from Bob Kelly and the Corson books, which, as you say, are very valuable resources.

I still have a lot of Bob Kelly makeup - holding on to it for dear life.  HATE to use it because I know I can't replace it.  Still have a couple CAKE makeups, some creamsticks and lots of his liners and such.  HIS PENCILS were the absolute best I've ever used and cannot find anything as good to replace them.  They were great.  I've looked at just about every pencil I can find and they all are way too soft, the sticks inside the pencils break far too easily, nothing comes close.  And I'll keep looking until one day I find someone selling pencils - something that comes as close as possible to what Bob Kelly made - though they won't be Kelly (naturally).  And then if I do I'll buy 500 of them if I have to.  As long as they work, you know?

I love Lee Baygan's work - it's been a makeup bible for prosthetics and mold making and such.  He certainly has wonderful credentials and is a top notch artist.  But as I said, it's so subjective and I just don't agree with the 5th row rule thing.  THAT also depends upon far too many factors which in Lee's day (and in my early days) made a difference to SOME degree.  Just nothing like what it is and what is required today.  CORSON of course, is THE BIBLE for stage makeup. He was an incredible artist as well and for someone to put together the KIND of book he did and improve it over time as he did - AS WELL as it being THE ESTABLISHED course study book in colleges and universities, well I could only wish!!! But still, I think so many who possess it don't read it.  Otherwise makeup work would be so much better than it is - and yet it is not. So many of these books fall WAY WAY short of being good enough to be much beyond STYLIZED makeup.  Even this new one I got - the gal must stick to costumes because her makeup work is laughable. I guess she just had the power of her position as an associate professor in a college setting to be able to get her book published.  But her makeup work is atrocious.  Oh sure, there are TONS of high res photos shown and her potential is high - it's just that her execution is outdated, heavy handed and unblended for the most part.  How she got a book published I'll never know.  GOD could ONLY SMILE on me and allow me to get mine published someday and I'll be happy.  But I'm not holding my breath.

Anyway, I'm glad to know you've had good instruction through Bob Kelly, Lee Baygan and Corson.  ALL of that experience has got to benefit you. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do...even though I get frustrated at the lack of concern for quality makeup application techniques.  People just don't seem to care that much.  In some ways, that's good - because it keeps me working on projects and getting hired.  I actually just got off the phone with a school in Alabama (a referral from another ALA school I worked for earlier this year) to do the makeup for the BEAST in Beauty And The Beast that they're doing in February of next year.  SO THAT is exciting and lucrative always. NICE to get referrals when you can.

So good luck - study it hard and become a force. There ARE too few good makeup artists working in Theater and we ARE a commodity. NOW if we could convince people to hire us and TEACH them the right way to do it - we'd benefit and so would they.

Tony

IMO, you TRY to make up so that it reads to the back row, but doesn't look like the paint factory exploded on you from the front row. With, as Lola says in Damn Yankees, the emphasis on the latter.

And Tony, if you write a practical makeup book that is aimed at theatres that don't have college-level resources, I will be the first to pre-order it.  I agree that everything I've ever read that doesn't have Corson on the cover has been bad.

POB - yet ANOTHER GREAT LINE (I'm sure I'll steal) "TRY to make up so that it reads to the back row, but doesn't look like the paint factory exploded on you from the front row".  I am laughing out loud - but crying on the inside too because as we all know, this is more often the case than not.  And it's sad, because even knowing how to do makeup well, you simply cannot tell anybody anything.  They know it ALL ALREADY!!! I just don't get it.  I guess I never will and need to quit vetching about it so much.  But it's the truth.  And you ARE right - you makeup for the back row - BUT if it doesn't look legit up close either - you're in deep do-do.

One of the BEST makeup artists I ever met in theater - believe it or not - was Hal Holbrook.  He came through and was doing his Mark Twain Tonight that he has so masterfully done for so many years.  And I got to go backstage and meet him.  What a delightfully friendly man and a superb actor in my book.  We chatted about the makeup since we have the mutual connection to Dick Smith, who did his makeup for the first TV airing of that one-man-show and for which Dick won an Emmy award as did Hal I believe.  And that makeup is demonstrated in Corson's book too. Awesome!!  BUT HIS makeup while partially designed by Dick has always been executed by HIMSELF (in modified form for stage - no prosthetics except the nose and bald cap) and he does THAT masterfully as well.  Even up close, with the required lines, wrinkles and so forth being painted on, it looked GREAT.  And this was presented in the opera house with three or four balconies and no-one would have had a problem seeing him from anywhere in the house.  It was a testament to top-notch makeup application for a large house, BUT that looked as legit up close as it did from the farthest away.  That stands out as probably one of my all time favorite makeup jobs both with the prosthetic application that Dick did for TV but equally as good as Holbrook does on himself for every stage performance of that show.

As for the book - you better believe I'm going to write it.  I need to research HOW to get it out to the public who might have the interest in it though.  NOT knowing can be deadly and I want to do it right, for the right people and for the right reason. I have NO intention of making a fortune.  I just would love to see people educated and to do it right.  But like now, I suspect enough of them would consider it as just another book about something they (THINK) they know.  I'm hoping to make it VERY easy to follow along with step-by-step-by-step - with clear explanations along the way complete with reasons WHY as well as HOW to do any of it. BUT it's going to take some time.  But it will surely happen.  It may be a year or two but I can guarantee it.  Thanks for asking - AND for the vote of confidence.

Tony

You know, you're right.  Why is that?  Techies will happily share techniques all night long over adult beverages.  Actors will go to classes to learn how to talk standing on their heads, and how to put grapes in their a** to learn "concentration."  But try to give somebody a makeup tip, and it's, "I know how to do makeup!"

PS:  I don't know where the grape thing came from.  My goofiness level is unusually high this morning. 

PPS:  For anyone reading this thread but not the other one, I posted about finding some cheap copies of Corson on Abebooks here:

http://www.communitytheater.org/discuss/forum_posts.asp?TID=2014&TPN=2 - http://www.communitytheater.org/discuss/forum_posts.asp?TID= 2014&TPN=2

You know I think it's really Richard Corson's fault!!! NOT REALLY.  HOWEVER I DO think it is the fault of a lot of these crappy makeup books that are out there that are soooooo poorly done that people who buy those books look at the makeup work and realize theirs is just like that and it's in a book, so they MUST be right.  Sad fact is that the books are crap, thus the makeup is crap.  AND on the rare occasion that some people's makeup work is BETTER than one of the crap books, then they think they're BETTER at makeup execution BECAUSE they're better than the book.  Little do they realize.  And it seems to me to be a personal issue - BUT you know it seems to only come from (majority that I've noticed) from actors who also think they're God's gift to theater too.  OR CONVERSELY the totally unaccomplished.  The middle ground actors who are good, who will take any role, who are open to direction without over-analyzing or over-stating how good they are, seem to be the ones who first, you CAN help and they appreciate it and secondly who, more often than not, take care to WANT to do it the best they can even though it may not be perfect (but they've really tried).  THEY are the ones who actually do it better than those who claim to "know how to do my (their) own makeup".  I don't get it either.  And I guess I never will.  There is no accounting for it that I can see. I've learned to just let them do their thing, look like clowns, and do everything they can to "impress" people which is all they usually seem to care about anyway.  I laugh it off.  I CRY however, when someone goes up to THEM and tells them how good their makeup looks.  I want to scream.  But I don't.  After the crying is over, I just laugh at them inside too.

So go figure.  If you come up with a better answer let me know - I'm willing to be told the truth in this regard as to why this is.

Tony B