Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Wireless Lavalier Mic System

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ruffp
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Topic: Wireless Lavalier Mic System
Posted: 5/17/10 at 11:04am

*New to forum*

I am new to directing and have virtually no tech experience whatsoever. But I know what I want. :)

I am considering the purchase of a 9 or 10 wireless microphone system for our community theatre. I would like the lavalier-type mics and would need a system that would allow all 9-10 mics to be used simultaneously without interference/feedback between actors.

Where should I start looking?

I apologize if this topic has been addressed thoroughly in a previous thread.

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David McCall
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Location: United States
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Posted: 5/17/10 at 2:23pm

The place to start is at your auditions. You need actors that can speak up and speak clearly. They have to be able to deal with the concept that they are not speaking to the actor that is next to them, but rather to a hard of hearing person way back in the auditorium. You don't want a mix either. You are almost better with nobody speaking loud enough than with a mix, because the ones that do project will be too loud on the mics of the people that don't. Many actors, even some professionals that can speak properly, loose that ability as soon as you put a wireless on them. They expect that they can now mumble and some magic sound system is going to make their speech crystal clear and plenty loud. It doesn't work that way in real life.

Traditionally, lavelier mics are the ones with clips to allow you to clip them on a lapel or collar. They are easy to deal with, but they have a problem in that the sound level and character of the sound will vary depending on the direction the actor is facing.

The current trend for theatre is to attach the mic to the actor's head. That way his voice stays at the same level no matter which way he turns his head. Hiding a very small lav in the hair or a in a wig or hat near the forehead is considered one of the best options. the same little mics can be taped to the cheek with surgical tape to get the mic closer to the mouth. You have to install the mic before the actor goes into makeup, because the skin has to be clean to accept the tape. They also make mics that clip over the ear and have a little boom to get the mic near the mouth.

The next thing is to be sure the mic takes AA cells instead of 9 volt batteries. 9 volt batteries are more expensive to buy, but even more important rechargeable 9 volt batteries don't last very long compared to AAs. Senheiser makes some good products, but there are many others. Don't go too cheap, and take care that no one sells you 700mhz units because they are not legal to use anymore. The FCC has hijacked that band and given it to others.

Another thing is to select diversity receivers These will have a pair of antennas and are much less susceptible to going in and out as people move around the stage.

Generally we use a sound system that is tailored to the performance space in an effort to keep the sound from the FOH system from getting to the stage and causing feed back. This means equalizing the system to reduce feedback, and using a system that is directional to cause most of the sound to hit the audience, and minimize the amount of sound that hits the walls and ceiling, as well as missing the stage.

David M

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mark_j
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Posted: 5/17/10 at 3:33pm

Lavelier clip-on mics can have a bad habit of "thumping." Anytime you pin a mic to clothing and expect an actor to move a lot you're going to run into this problem.

Head mics are probably the best trade-off between sound and appearance. I've used both head mics and the over-the-ear boom mics. The boom mics are visible but easier for the actors to do makeup. There are ear mics that cost $400 (plus transmitter) that are practically invisible. I helped at a high school that used cheaper boom mics and they worked well. This is what they looked like:

http://www.claycentraleverly.com/hs_happenings/archives/DSC08332.jpg

Anytime you run wireless mics you have to figure in a sound check before each one of the shows (about 2 mins per mic to check speaking/singing levels). I've done sound on a dozen shows with 50 different actors. Only one actor was ever consistent enough to pass sound check without adjustment.

Remember that sound levels are going to change during a performance, especially a musical, as the actor's voice changes. This is more evident with younger actors. They start off quiet and get louder as their confidence and voices get warmed up...and if you're doing a musical with a bunch of "belters" get ready on the slider.

Another suggestion, use a mixing board with mutes. Leave the wireless mics hot the entire time. Put a piece of tape over the On/Off/Mute button. Nothing is more agrivating to a sound person than a mic with no signal. Let the sound guy worry about the sound and the actors can worry about the acting. Once the transmitter is stuffed into a pocket or "bra pack" they don't need to be distracted by it.

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David McCall
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Posted: 5/17/10 at 3:56pm

The over the ear mics can be pretty expensive, but here i a link to MM Audio where they have miniature mics and over the ear mics at really cheap prices. I'd like to try a couple when the opportunity comes up.

Another option is the boundary mic. It is a small mic that is placed directly on the floor at the edge of the stage. The Shure PCC-160 is a standard these days, but the fellow that designed it floor mic claims to have a competitive floor mic that has superior sound quality, is more rugged, and it is less expensive. I'd like to try a couple of these mics too.

David M

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ruffp
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Posted: 5/18/10 at 3:17pm

Thanks guys - you've sold me on the over-the-ear mics, and MM Audio seems to have quite a bargain on those.

Correct if I'm wrong, but I will also need to separately purchase a transmitter (that takes the AA batteries) for each mic, and then a "diversity receiver" for each transmitter. Right?

Do these come in systems that include everything or is that a stupid way to go? I guess I'm just afraid that I'll purchase the components and then, because of my obvious ignorance on these things, the parts won't work together.

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David McCall
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Posted: 5/18/10 at 5:27pm

You do have to buy a transmitter and a receiver for each mic. Each pair has to match. There are usually packages that include a transmitter and a receiver plus a cheap mic as a bundle. I've never priced it out to see if that is a better deal if you were planing to not use the included mic.

David M

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JoeMc
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Posted: 5/18/10 at 11:29pm

Here is an unobtrusive bud radio mic, which may help. http://www.brightandloud.com/microphone-placement
Also when using radio mics it is a good practice to use them during rehearsals. Thus getting the performers to used to wearing & the niose techie operating & controling them. This also reduces the chances of the odd gaff by not ensuring they are switch out off stage.
Sure this will cost batteries but well worth it, as they need to be changed out with fresh ones for each performance. Although so much the better if you can orginise a supplier to give them for buckshee or priced reduced for comps or whatever

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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David McCall
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Location: United States
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Posted: 9/04/10 at 12:21pm

We tried 2 of the MM Audio
mics this summer and found them to be pretty nice mics for the price. We bought the over the ear cardioid and the omni with double ear loops. We liked the omni mic element over the cardioid version. The double ear loops were more stable in terms of the mic staying in position.

David M

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museav
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Joined: 11/06/09
Location: United States
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Posts: 38

Posted: 9/07/10 at 6:15pm

Well, the major players in wireless mics are probably, in alphabetical order, Audio-Technica, Lectrosonics, Mipro, Sennheiser and Shure. And whether you use a lavaliere, boom, head mounted or similar mic the general concept as far as the wireless system would be a bodypack system. You can purchase these with specific mics or many people will purchase the wireless system with the cheapest mic possible, or none at all if that is an option, and then purchase the desired mics separately (ordering them terminated for whatever bodypack with which they will be used).

Being able to operate nine to ten wireless systems simultaneously probably pushes you out of many entry level systems. Also be aware that systems that claim "up to" a certain number of simultaneous systems are presenting a best case scenario and that existing wireless systems, other interfering RF sources, etc. could effectively limit you to fewer than that maximum number. You really should do a frequency study for your location and intended use before purchasing, some of the manufacturers offer tools for this online or maybe the party you'd be purchasing from could run a study for you.

Antenna and power distribution can also become a factor with that quantity of systems and you may want to consider also including a couple of antenna/power distribution units to allow all the receivers to use the same pair of antennas.

Wireless mics are not usually a good place to cut corners. There are plenty of inexpensive wireless systems out there but they typically do not offer the reliability, durability and performance required for theatre applications.

Brad W.

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flyweed
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Joined: 10/27/08
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Posted: 10/21/10 at 8:07pm

don't know if anyone is interested..but I have a set of 4 SHURE UT series wireless lavs for sale. New they are about $600 or so each...THese are 4 years old..and come with rack mount hardware..the receiver, belt pack and stock mics.

I am asking $200 each....$800 for the 4 together. All 4 must go together.

D. H

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Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Lights and Sound

Topic: Wireless Lavalier Mic System( Topic Closed)
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Author	Message
ruffp Walk-On Joined: 5/17/10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Topic: Wireless Lavalier Mic System Posted: 5/17/10 at 11:04am
	New to forum I am new to directing and have virtually no tech experience whatsoever. But I know what I want. :) I am considering the purchase of a 9 or 10 wireless microphone system for our community theatre. I would like the lavalier-type mics and would need a system that would allow all 9-10 mics to be used simultaneously without interference/feedback between actors. Where should I start looking? I apologize if this topic has been addressed thoroughly in a previous thread.

	IP Logged

David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 5/17/10 at 2:23pm
	The place to start is at your auditions. You need actors that can speak up and speak clearly. They have to be able to deal with the concept that they are not speaking to the actor that is next to them, but rather to a hard of hearing person way back in the auditorium. You don't want a mix either. You are almost better with nobody speaking loud enough than with a mix, because the ones that do project will be too loud on the mics of the people that don't. Many actors, even some professionals that can speak properly, loose that ability as soon as you put a wireless on them. They expect that they can now mumble and some magic sound system is going to make their speech crystal clear and plenty loud. It doesn't work that way in real life. Traditionally, lavelier mics are the ones with clips to allow you to clip them on a lapel or collar. They are easy to deal with, but they have a problem in that the sound level and character of the sound will vary depending on the direction the actor is facing. The current trend for theatre is to attach the mic to the actor's head. That way his voice stays at the same level no matter which way he turns his head. Hiding a very small lav in the hair or a in a wig or hat near the forehead is considered one of the best options. the same little mics can be taped to the cheek with surgical tape to get the mic closer to the mouth. You have to install the mic before the actor goes into makeup, because the skin has to be clean to accept the tape. They also make mics that clip over the ear and have a little boom to get the mic near the mouth. The next thing is to be sure the mic takes AA cells instead of 9 volt batteries. 9 volt batteries are more expensive to buy, but even more important rechargeable 9 volt batteries don't last very long compared to AAs. Senheiser makes some good products, but there are many others. Don't go too cheap, and take care that no one sells you 700mhz units because they are not legal to use anymore. The FCC has hijacked that band and given it to others. Another thing is to select diversity receivers These will have a pair of antennas and are much less susceptible to going in and out as people move around the stage. Generally we use a sound system that is tailored to the performance space in an effort to keep the sound from the FOH system from getting to the stage and causing feed back. This means equalizing the system to reduce feedback, and using a system that is directional to cause most of the sound to hit the audience, and minimize the amount of sound that hits the walls and ceiling, as well as missing the stage.
	David M
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mark_j Lead Joined: 11/28/04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 31	Posted: 5/17/10 at 3:33pm
	Lavelier clip-on mics can have a bad habit of "thumping." Anytime you pin a mic to clothing and expect an actor to move a lot you're going to run into this problem. Head mics are probably the best trade-off between sound and appearance. I've used both head mics and the over-the-ear boom mics. The boom mics are visible but easier for the actors to do makeup. There are ear mics that cost $400 (plus transmitter) that are practically invisible. I helped at a high school that used cheaper boom mics and they worked well. This is what they looked like: http://www.claycentraleverly.com/hs_happenings/archives/DSC08332.jpg Anytime you run wireless mics you have to figure in a sound check before each one of the shows (about 2 mins per mic to check speaking/singing levels). I've done sound on a dozen shows with 50 different actors. Only one actor was ever consistent enough to pass sound check without adjustment. Remember that sound levels are going to change during a performance, especially a musical, as the actor's voice changes. This is more evident with younger actors. They start off quiet and get louder as their confidence and voices get warmed up...and if you're doing a musical with a bunch of "belters" get ready on the slider. Another suggestion, use a mixing board with mutes. Leave the wireless mics hot the entire time. Put a piece of tape over the On/Off/Mute button. Nothing is more agrivating to a sound person than a mic with no signal. Let the sound guy worry about the sound and the actors can worry about the acting. Once the transmitter is stuffed into a pocket or "bra pack" they don't need to be distracted by it. mj
	IP Logged

David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 5/17/10 at 3:56pm
	The over the ear mics can be pretty expensive, but here i a link to MM Audio where they have miniature mics and over the ear mics at really cheap prices. I'd like to try a couple when the opportunity comes up. Another option is the boundary mic. It is a small mic that is placed directly on the floor at the edge of the stage. The Shure PCC-160 is a standard these days, but the fellow that designed it floor mic claims to have a competitive floor mic that has superior sound quality, is more rugged, and it is less expensive. I'd like to try a couple of these mics too.
	David M
	IP Logged

ruffp Walk-On Joined: 5/17/10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 5/18/10 at 3:17pm
	Thanks guys - you've sold me on the over-the-ear mics, and MM Audio seems to have quite a bargain on those. Correct if I'm wrong, but I will also need to separately purchase a transmitter (that takes the AA batteries) for each mic, and then a "diversity receiver" for each transmitter. Right? Do these come in systems that include everything or is that a stupid way to go? I guess I'm just afraid that I'll purchase the components and then, because of my obvious ignorance on these things, the parts won't work together.
	IP Logged

David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 5/18/10 at 5:27pm
	You do have to buy a transmitter and a receiver for each mic. Each pair has to match. There are usually packages that include a transmitter and a receiver plus a cheap mic as a bundle. I've never priced it out to see if that is a better deal if you were planing to not use the included mic.
	David M
	IP Logged

JoeMc Celebrity Joined: 3/13/06 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 832	Posted: 5/18/10 at 11:29pm
	Here is an unobtrusive bud radio mic, which may help. http://www.brightandloud.com/microphone-placement Also when using radio mics it is a good practice to use them during rehearsals. Thus getting the performers to used to wearing & the niose techie operating & controling them. This also reduces the chances of the odd gaff by not ensuring they are switch out off stage. Sure this will cost batteries but well worth it, as they need to be changed out with fresh ones for each performance. Although so much the better if you can orginise a supplier to give them for buckshee or priced reduced for comps or whatever
	[western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!}
	IP Logged

David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 9/04/10 at 12:21pm
	We tried 2 of the MM Audio mics this summer and found them to be pretty nice mics for the price. We bought the over the ear cardioid and the omni with double ear loops. We liked the omni mic element over the cardioid version. The double ear loops were more stable in terms of the mic staying in position.
	David M
	IP Logged

museav Lead Joined: 11/06/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 38	Posted: 9/07/10 at 6:15pm
	Well, the major players in wireless mics are probably, in alphabetical order, Audio-Technica, Lectrosonics, Mipro, Sennheiser and Shure. And whether you use a lavaliere, boom, head mounted or similar mic the general concept as far as the wireless system would be a bodypack system. You can purchase these with specific mics or many people will purchase the wireless system with the cheapest mic possible, or none at all if that is an option, and then purchase the desired mics separately (ordering them terminated for whatever bodypack with which they will be used). Being able to operate nine to ten wireless systems simultaneously probably pushes you out of many entry level systems. Also be aware that systems that claim "up to" a certain number of simultaneous systems are presenting a best case scenario and that existing wireless systems, other interfering RF sources, etc. could effectively limit you to fewer than that maximum number. You really should do a frequency study for your location and intended use before purchasing, some of the manufacturers offer tools for this online or maybe the party you'd be purchasing from could run a study for you. Antenna and power distribution can also become a factor with that quantity of systems and you may want to consider also including a couple of antenna/power distribution units to allow all the receivers to use the same pair of antennas. Wireless mics are not usually a good place to cut corners. There are plenty of inexpensive wireless systems out there but they typically do not offer the reliability, durability and performance required for theatre applications.
	Brad W.
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flyweed Walk-On Joined: 10/27/08 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 6	Posted: 10/21/10 at 8:07pm
	don't know if anyone is interested..but I have a set of 4 SHURE UT series wireless lavs for sale. New they are about $600 or so each...THese are 4 years old..and come with rack mount hardware..the receiver, belt pack and stock mics. I am asking $200 each....$800 for the 4 together. All 4 must go together. D. H
	IP Logged