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b6307
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bullet Posted: 1/31/07 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by red diva

Bravo, Paramitch!!  I've been pushing for years to challenge and "educate" our conservative audiences.  Sure, there are going to be some that object, but there are also going to be some that applaud you for not playing to the lowest common denominator.  Don't insult your audiences' intelligence thinking you have to "play down" to them.
 
And here is another example of how the arts and theatre specifically can come off as being condencending!  First of all why, especially in the theatre, do some feel the necessity to "educate" others relative to the use of profanity and similar social mores.  If we're being honest we'd admit that the playwright, or the director, is using the stage as a bully pulpit to make some statement concerning thier view of the world and people in general.  Fine, they have every right to do that and if they protect their "work" by copyright then the rule of law backs them up if anyone tries to change it without their permission.
 
Since when though does this equate to the "work" being worthy?  Why is some playwrights musings and use of foul language automatically assumed to be intellectually superior and  elevated to "must see" status just because he uses shock value.   And since when does being "conservative" put one in the category of "needing to be educated" on the ways of the world?  Like we can avoid the filth that exists in real life?
 
Good, wholesome entertainment sans profanity may not be cutting edge, it may not expose the underbelly of the real human condition, it may not be for the true intelligentsia but it does entertain a goodly percentage of folks in flyover country (for the benefit of the intelligentsia- flyover country  would be all those folks in between the coasts ).
 
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bullet Posted: 1/31/07 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by b6307

Originally posted by red diva

Bravo, Paramitch!!  I've been pushing for years to challenge and "educate" our conservative audiences.  Sure, there are going to be some that object, but there are also going to be some that applaud you for not playing to the lowest common denominator.  Don't insult your audiences' intelligence thinking you have to "play down" to them.
 
And here is another example of how the arts and theatre specifically can come off as being condencending!  First of all why, especially in the theatre, do some feel the necessity to "educate" others relative to the use of profanity and similar social mores.  If we're being honest we'd admit that the playwright, or the director, is using the stage as a bully pulpit to make some statement concerning thier view of the world and people in general.  Fine, they have every right to do that and if they protect their "work" by copyright then the rule of law backs them up if anyone tries to change it without their permission.
 
Since when though does this equate to the "work" being worthy?  Why is some playwrights musings and use of foul language automatically assumed to be intellectually superior and  elevated to "must see" status just because he uses shock value.   And since when does being "conservative" put one in the category of "needing to be educated" on the ways of the world?  Like we can avoid the filth that exists in real life?
 
Good, wholesome entertainment sans profanity may not be cutting edge, it may not expose the underbelly of the real human condition, it may not be for the true intelligentsia but it does entertain a goodly percentage of folks in flyover country (for the benefit of the intelligentsia- flyover country  would be all those folks in between the coasts ).
 
 
My advice is don't do the shows of playwrights where language or content is an issue.    That really isn't the issue for this particular topic.  It's that one does not have the right to alter a playwright's work without permission for any reason.   The same laws that protect these "cutting edge" playwrights protect you as well.   They protect the person that writes family oriented scripts as well as the person that writes the most heinous, foul mouthed or prurient script imaginable.   The protection that any playwright enjoys has nothing at all do with the worthiness of the script and all to do with ownership.
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bullet Posted: 1/31/07 at 3:55pm

b6307:

I never in any way equated profanity with excellence, but there are a lot of excellent, Pulitzer (and other) prize winners out there that should be done, are quality literature that make quality theatre,  are challenging and stretching to both the presenting group and the audience, that just happen to have profanity or "adult" situations.

What I was saying, and maybe I wasn't clear in expressing myself, was that you can't just throw one of these plays into a season without laying some groundwork.  You need to gradually introduce more challenging works into your season over the course of several years, which is what I meant by "educating". 

I also never indicated that we should veer away from doing quality "family" type shows.  I love and have done such works as "Harvey", "Arsenic". "The Man Who Came to Dinner", etc., and heartily encourage theatres to include those in their seasons.  A balanced season, with plays that appeal to all the various tastes of your audiences, is what I was suggesting.  There are people in every demographic that appreciate being challenged .... and I don't mean just with profanity.  Some great, quality scripts just happen to include edgy language......the language is not what they're about.  If the language IS what they're about, then they're probably not worth doing.  Although I suspect even those types of shows have an audience!

And, by the way, there was no need to try to demean those that don't agree with your point of view.  I think we know what you meant by "flyover country"....some of us, myself included, just happen to live there! I don't  consider myself as part of the intelligencia, I live in rural Ohio, I am a retired elementary teacher, but I still feel that there is worthy theatre out there that isn't family fare. 
 
Do I sniff a whiff of reverse snobbism?
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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 10:03am

***** Warning***** Rant Alert*******
****Author is just venting for his own clensing****
 
First, BMD, I herby acknowledge this thread is about changing stuff... And I also agree, the decision not to have certain language/situations on your particular stage is one that needs to be made in the play selection committee (or like venue for the particular org.) But as the subject does seem to have swayed a bit....

I too, am a current resident of "fly over" country, however, I am retired Military... Very use to ALL forms of language and situations... I have lived or worked in many of our country's (and many of the worlds) major urban areas.  My language, in and of itself, is at times colorful, to say the least...  I do, however, attempt to moderate MYSELF when in the company of others who may not have the same need for a four letter exclamation point in their speech.

Though I love diva dearly (she is currently directing me and four other men in a very interesting and powerful show "That Championship Season" which has more profanity and adult situations than you can shake a stick at, that is appropriately slotted in our “second stage” season)  And while I respect the position that many fine works do have language and situations, I have to admit that, like b3607, I often am left wondering why so MANY of the plays we feel NEED to be done are ones we feel we need to caveat with "the public needs to be educated" or "our actors need to stretch" as if in my second career as a middle school teacher,  I should be teaching my students the proper conjugation of Sh#t etc etc... Or encouraging them to stretch their vocabulary to include regular usage of these terms...  AGAIN.. I agree, some great shows out there. Should be done!.. But if your community is not right for them, should you do them for the heck of it?

Again, Diva.... Luv ya... (and I am NOT posing this just to or at you, for there are many like minded among us)  why does the fact that a show has won a Pulitzer or a Tony etc... Etc... Etc...  make it worth doing?  Make it necessary for the audience to see and accept?  Now, I know we are a source of media entertainment, but I think the reasons for  critical acclaim given some works these days are not far from the trash Hollywood puts out.  Make it DEEP, Coarse, painful, profane, and maybe just a little perverse and it's a must do!  Sometimes I think that stuff is just done with the sole intention of shocking people…  I have read some stuff people have suggested and found no other redeeming value than its ability to offend the largest number of people possible. I get that. And there is a place for it.. I’m just not sure it’s Main Street USA.

The problem probably comes down to there just isn’t ENOUGH theater.. There are not enough venues with enough patrons to provide for places where all they do is “cutting edge” or “family oriented”.. Until that day comes, I agree with Diva on the point of the need for a “Balanced Season.”  But I think the point to realize is that balanced for one theater or demographic is not balanced for another..

I guess b3607 just struck a cord with me and hit on something I have always wondered about at play selection time.  My politics is has always been very conservative, but my education has always been quite liberal.  My world travel has exposed me to many things.  I love many art forms besides the theater. Am I out of step if I can stand in awe of Michael Angelo in Rome, admire a Spanish fresco in a centuries old cathedral, find something to think about in a Picasso and yet be put off (if not repulsed) by a crucifix in vile of urine that someone decided to call cutting edge art?

Anyway, sorry for rambling off, but the discussion struck a confluence of emotions and thoughts I have had of late. Again, no intention to offend.. (Not one of those times I try to draw you out Red)…. See ya at play reading..

Marty W

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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 10:21am
Examples of works, in addition to Annie as mentioned, with "foul language":
 
Huckleberry Finn
Romeo and Juliet (and every other Shakespeare play)
I Remember Mama (they swore in Norwegian in the movie!)
HMS Pinafore
The Bible
D**n Yankees Big%20smile
How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying
Avenue Q (okay, bad example LOL)
 
I don't think any of the "intelligentsia" want to pry the audience's mouth open and shove American Buffalo down its throat.  What we want to do, I think, is
 
1) avoid infringing on the owners' rights, by not changing things the authors wrote to suit our purposes, and
2) give ourselves and our audiences a chance to stretch a bit by doing things that might be a bit outside the comfort zone of each.
 
Quality and family freindliness are not necessarily related.  Nor are they necessarily inversely related. 
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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Nanette

This wasn't CT .. it was at a small theatrical college.  He was a theatre major and was required to perform for part of his grade.
 
He was required to perform that role in that play for his grade?  That's unusual.  The school ought to be rethinking its policies.  Where I went to undergrad (I was not a theatre major), I believe that no theatre major had to perform in any plays at all for their degree.  They would get credit if they were cast, but the decision to audition was theirs.   Now if this was an MFA program, that's different, but he'll have a rough go of it in the business with that attitude.  Not that I'm condemning it; I'm just saying, practically, there will be difficulties.
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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 10:29am
POB.... Agree... BUT.... I also think it is not counter intuitive should I Agree with b6307.... But as stated, the bottom line of this thread is, if you don't want to say what they wrote, decide that at play reading and pick something else!!
Marty W

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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 11:10am
Originally posted by MartyW

...I guess b3607 just struck a cord with me and hit on something I have always wondered about at play selection time.  My politics is has always been very conservative, but my education has always been quite liberal.  My world travel has exposed me to many things.  I love many art forms besides the theater. Am I out of step if I can stand in awe of Michael Angelo in Rome, admire a Spanish fresco in a centuries old cathedral, find something to think about in a Picasso and yet be put off (if not repulsed) by a crucifix in vile of urine that someone decided to call cutting edge art?

 
I too find myself in a similar situation concerning my politics, values and beliefs (even ex-military) which is why I fear I will always be at odds with most of my collegues in the theatre.
 
Red Diva suggests a hint of reverse snobbism at play in my previous remarks and perhaps I am a bit overly sensitive to insinuations equating conservative values to being less enlightened.   However her attempt to clarify what she really meant in her previous remarks actually proved the point I was trying to make concerning the need to "educate" the masses on challenging or controversial material.  Red Diva's premise is that the community/audience in question needs to be prepared sufficiently for these works.  What if the predominant community position is that they don't want "edgy", challenging works?  Who are we to tell them they must have it?  It's a moot point anyway because if you force feed these type of productions to a community that doesn't want them then the market will take care of itself and the actors will play to an empty house.  Art for arts sake won't keep the theatre doors open.
 
So what's all this got to do with the current thread?  Well, as a Director and actor the reality of the situation is that you play to the predominant audiences, you work with the folks that walk in the doors for auditions and you try to bring off magic every night.  If that means a little, and yes Craig I mean a very little, creative replacement of the "F" word here or there to calm the sensibilities of an actor or an audience then you do what it takes.
Is it techincally right, probably not.  Is it a good idea to ask before doing... depends on the situation. 
 
Someone remarked earlier in this thread that they were amazed at the fact that a small town, conservative California audience didn't get up and walk out because of some nudity in the play.  Let me tell you that there's a world of difference between small town conservative in California versus small town conservative in the bible belt South.  The theatre is all about being entertained whether you're on-stage or in the audience.  Is it wrong to pander?  I don't think so.  Applause has the same effects no matter what your values are and what type of show you enjoy the most.  In the end you do what it takes to make the audiences and actors happy and that's what it's all about.
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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 11:51am

I hear you 6307... And I agree with so much of it.. I would like to point out that Red is a Fine actress, director and knowledgable supporter of the arts and theater at large... and a good freind of mine.. She, as you can imagine, is also one of those that I frequently have this type of discussion with... 

I guess the Bottom... Bottom.. Bottom line might come down to, is theater a place for entertainment or education, or political change.... Probably, the answer is all three, and more, but if it is to survive, and continue on down the road, I think it will continue to take all of our varying opinions and views (and honest discussion) to keep it between the lines and rubber side down... And a little bit or artistic integrety to do the shows we commit to, and the forsight to pass on the ones that are a bridge to far for the folks we rely on to pay the bills.... Tough choices all around..

Marty W

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bullet Posted: 2/01/07 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by MartyW

I guess the Bottom... Bottom.. Bottom line might come down to, is theater a place for entertainment or education, or political change.... Probably, the answer is all three, and more, but if it is to survive, and continue on down the road, I think it will continue to take all of our varying opinions and views (and honest discussion) to keep it between the lines and rubber side down... And a little bit or artistic integrety to do the shows we commit to, and the forsight to pass on the ones that are a bridge to far for the folks we rely on to pay the bills.... Tough choices all around..

 
Marty, I've been trying to come up with a way to say that in a succinct manner... you just saved me the trouble (and I doubt that I could have put it as well). I think you may have just summed up community theater in a few sentences. Thank you.
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