Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Faking Windows

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AlanF
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Topic: Faking Windows
Posted: 10/21/12 at 12:36am

I'll be directing Busybody at our theater this winter. The play takes place in the managing director's office in a high-rise London office building. I think that a corner office is called for, so I've designed the set with large windows in the UR corner of the set.

The windows will make things a little more expensive and complicated than I would like, because we won't be able to use stock flats where the windows are, and we'll also have to put backing flats behind the windows and paint them to look like sky or a skyline.

I'm wondering if it would work to use stock flats and paint the sky/skyline right on the flat, with molding around it to make it look like a window. There will be blinds hanging in front of the window, which will be closed during the night scenes. I'm wondering if we could light this convincingly for the daytime scenes.

Would this work? Has anyone tried this?

Thanks!

Alan

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vickifrank
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Posted: 10/21/12 at 9:36am

You could do that, but you will lose the feeling of depth that you'd get from a front layer of window flats and a back drop painted with the skyline behind them.

I'm a scrim person, so I'd cover the front layer with scrim for the windows and hang a backdrop behind. You don't need the front layer to be flats at all. The scrim I'm talking about can turn a corner if need be. (Chameleon Scrim)

So I'd save money by cutting the front layer of non-standard flats. The scrim is going to cost about $1/sq ft.

For the back layer you could use painted flats, or a drop. Since the front scrim would diffuse the background slightly, it will hide errors in painting a bit and make the skyline look more distant.

_____________

http://www.studio-productions-inc.com
1-800-359-2964

The theater scrim people

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David McCall
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Posted: 10/21/12 at 12:41pm

Might it work to use the black scrim for the window and paint the window frame detail right on the scrim material and apply tape (or maybe just paint) from the back side for opacity. You could then use a painted background outside the window. The background should be at least 5' from the window to give room to light it properly. If floor to ceiling windows are called for, you might consider having a balcony outside the window to reduce the amount of background needed. I like to have the windows light up for night scenes. doing the buildings as a cutout ground row with little holes to let light through the windows lit from behind. One time I had to have the cut out buildings so close to the window that the lights on the set lit it too much for the night scenes so I glued small bits of crumpled aluminum to a black scrim that I flew in for the night scene. The foil picked up enough light to represent windows.

David M

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AlanF
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Posted: 10/21/12 at 5:18pm

Thanks for the quick replies! I'm definitely going for a realistic look here, because the play is a sort of comedy-thriller, and I think the realism is necessary to create the right mood.

I probably should have explained more about our theater. It's a black box, and the stage isn't very deep. The audience is very close -- the front row of seats is only a few feet from the proscenium (or where the proscenium would be, if we had one!). My "fake window" idea might be too obvious from the front row.

There isn't enough room to have a 5' separation between the window and the backdrop. And there definitely won't be room for a ground row in between. Because of that, I'm thinking it might be best just to paint a sky on the backdrop.

Alan

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David McCall
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Posted: 10/22/12 at 11:37am

The reason for the distance is lighting. not only do you have to light the background, but you'll also have to keep the lights on the set from hitting the background and casting shadows from the window frame.

Does the script call for being able to see a skyline out of the window? If not you could keep the blinds closed and just have "daylight" leaking in around the blinds. For this you would put a sheet (or other translucent material just outside the window and hit it with a bunch of light from behind.

You may want dark screen or scrim in the window to keep the sheet from showing up at night. Blue is interpreted to indicate darkness, so you might light the sheet with a saturated blue.

Another option is to find someone with a large format printer to print a large picture you can attach to the window. The picture could be a photo or a painting.

You might be able to light the picture from behind wit fluorescent lights if it can be left on except in the night time scene. You might want a little blue light on the picture at night too.

David M

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bmiller025
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Posted: 10/22/12 at 1:39pm

I am dealing with this exact challenge at the moment, for the world premiere of a Sherlock Holmes play at a very small community theater nearby. The set designers decided to paint a window, looking out on a garden on the upstage backing flat of the stage. They spent a great deal of time painstakingly painting the scene out the window, and also painting the window frame around that view out the window. There is also a full length, handmade drape hanging in front of the "window." As the lighting designer for the show, I made all sorts of noise about the choices made, as it is very important to convey time-of-day from scene to scene. What I have had to do is hang two ellipsoidal spotlights in front of the window, teach the actors who use the window curtains that they must be opened to a very specific spot, and carefully focus the lights to cover the specific area "outside." One saturated blue for nighttime, and a warm amber for daylight. Is it going to work? Well, kinda/sorta. Would building a false wall in front of that back wall, with an actual window positioned there, and giving me approximately 18" between the window and backing been a better solution? I think so, but we are definitely impaired by low budgets here as well. I will be taking production photos on Wednesday, and will post them here, and let you all decide for yourselves.

Keep in mind when deciding what approach works best for you that the windows are a light source. Treat them like one, and you will be much better able to create that realism onstage that you desire. Actually having light streaming in through the window is a powerful way to create that realism.

Edited by bmiller025 - 10/22/12 at 1:43pm

http://www.brianmiller.biz/BrianDesign.htm

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David McCall
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Posted: 10/22/12 at 3:45pm

Limited space behind the window makes shooting a light through a window at a decent angle very hard. I try to avoid windows in the upstage wall because lighting and backings are so much easier in side walls when space is limited.

Mirrors are easier to do in side walls as well. The beauty of mirrors is in the reflections in the mirror. If a mirror is in the back wall all it can reflect is the blackness of the auditorium and a bunch of lights.

David M

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bmiller025
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Posted: 10/25/12 at 2:21am

As I promised to post the other night, here are three images that include the fake window on the set of my latest show:

http://www.brianmiller.biz/PA241068s.jpg

http://www.brianmiller.biz/PA241189s.jpg

http://www.brianmiller.biz/PA241484s.jpg

http://www.brianmiller.biz/BrianDesign.htm

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Raging Thespian
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Posted: 10/31/12 at 12:23pm

Good job Brian! It certainly looks like daylight and evening shots to me.

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AlanF
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Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:41am

Great job, Brian ... looks terrific and really conveys a sense of time of day.

I think I'm going to go with David's suggestion, though, of light leaking through the window blinds from behind. Window blinds are going to be necessary, anyway, because I need the room to be pitch black at some points in the script, which wouldn't be believable with a uncovered window facing out on a cityscape.

I think that the kind of effect that Brian created might be spoiled by window blinds, since they would probably make it obvious that the light is coming from the front.

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Set Design and Construction
Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Set Design and Construction

Author	Message
AlanF Walk-On Joined: 10/16/12 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Topic: Faking Windows Posted: 10/21/12 at 12:36am
	I'll be directing Busybody at our theater this winter. The play takes place in the managing director's office in a high-rise London office building. I think that a corner office is called for, so I've designed the set with large windows in the UR corner of the set. The windows will make things a little more expensive and complicated than I would like, because we won't be able to use stock flats where the windows are, and we'll also have to put backing flats behind the windows and paint them to look like sky or a skyline. I'm wondering if it would work to use stock flats and paint the sky/skyline right on the flat, with molding around it to make it look like a window. There will be blinds hanging in front of the window, which will be closed during the night scenes. I'm wondering if we could light this convincingly for the daytime scenes. Would this work? Has anyone tried this? Thanks! Alan

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vickifrank Celebrity Joined: 9/21/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 332	Posted: 10/21/12 at 9:36am
	You could do that, but you will lose the feeling of depth that you'd get from a front layer of window flats and a back drop painted with the skyline behind them. I'm a scrim person, so I'd cover the front layer with scrim for the windows and hang a backdrop behind. You don't need the front layer to be flats at all. The scrim I'm talking about can turn a corner if need be. (Chameleon Scrim) So I'd save money by cutting the front layer of non-standard flats. The scrim is going to cost about $1/sq ft. For the back layer you could use painted flats, or a drop. Since the front scrim would diffuse the background slightly, it will hide errors in painting a bit and make the skyline look more distant.
	_____________ http://www.studio-productions-inc.com 1-800-359-2964 The theater scrim people
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David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 10/21/12 at 12:41pm
	Might it work to use the black scrim for the window and paint the window frame detail right on the scrim material and apply tape (or maybe just paint) from the back side for opacity. You could then use a painted background outside the window. The background should be at least 5' from the window to give room to light it properly. If floor to ceiling windows are called for, you might consider having a balcony outside the window to reduce the amount of background needed. I like to have the windows light up for night scenes. doing the buildings as a cutout ground row with little holes to let light through the windows lit from behind. One time I had to have the cut out buildings so close to the window that the lights on the set lit it too much for the night scenes so I glued small bits of crumpled aluminum to a black scrim that I flew in for the night scene. The foil picked up enough light to represent windows.
	David M
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AlanF Walk-On Joined: 10/16/12 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 10/21/12 at 5:18pm
	Thanks for the quick replies! I'm definitely going for a realistic look here, because the play is a sort of comedy-thriller, and I think the realism is necessary to create the right mood. I probably should have explained more about our theater. It's a black box, and the stage isn't very deep. The audience is very close -- the front row of seats is only a few feet from the proscenium (or where the proscenium would be, if we had one!). My "fake window" idea might be too obvious from the front row. There isn't enough room to have a 5' separation between the window and the backdrop. And there definitely won't be room for a ground row in between. Because of that, I'm thinking it might be best just to paint a sky on the backdrop. Alan
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David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 10/22/12 at 11:37am
	The reason for the distance is lighting. not only do you have to light the background, but you'll also have to keep the lights on the set from hitting the background and casting shadows from the window frame. Does the script call for being able to see a skyline out of the window? If not you could keep the blinds closed and just have "daylight" leaking in around the blinds. For this you would put a sheet (or other translucent material just outside the window and hit it with a bunch of light from behind. You may want dark screen or scrim in the window to keep the sheet from showing up at night. Blue is interpreted to indicate darkness, so you might light the sheet with a saturated blue. Another option is to find someone with a large format printer to print a large picture you can attach to the window. The picture could be a photo or a painting. You might be able to light the picture from behind wit fluorescent lights if it can be left on except in the night time scene. You might want a little blue light on the picture at night too.
	David M
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bmiller025 Star Joined: 10/06/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 82	Posted: 10/22/12 at 1:39pm
	I am dealing with this exact challenge at the moment, for the world premiere of a Sherlock Holmes play at a very small community theater nearby. The set designers decided to paint a window, looking out on a garden on the upstage backing flat of the stage. They spent a great deal of time painstakingly painting the scene out the window, and also painting the window frame around that view out the window. There is also a full length, handmade drape hanging in front of the "window." As the lighting designer for the show, I made all sorts of noise about the choices made, as it is very important to convey time-of-day from scene to scene. What I have had to do is hang two ellipsoidal spotlights in front of the window, teach the actors who use the window curtains that they must be opened to a very specific spot, and carefully focus the lights to cover the specific area "outside." One saturated blue for nighttime, and a warm amber for daylight. Is it going to work? Well, kinda/sorta. Would building a false wall in front of that back wall, with an actual window positioned there, and giving me approximately 18" between the window and backing been a better solution? I think so, but we are definitely impaired by low budgets here as well. I will be taking production photos on Wednesday, and will post them here, and let you all decide for yourselves. Keep in mind when deciding what approach works best for you that the windows are a light source. Treat them like one, and you will be much better able to create that realism onstage that you desire. Actually having light streaming in through the window is a powerful way to create that realism. Edited by bmiller025 - 10/22/12 at 1:43pm
	http://www.brianmiller.biz/BrianDesign.htm
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David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 10/22/12 at 3:45pm
	Limited space behind the window makes shooting a light through a window at a decent angle very hard. I try to avoid windows in the upstage wall because lighting and backings are so much easier in side walls when space is limited. Mirrors are easier to do in side walls as well. The beauty of mirrors is in the reflections in the mirror. If a mirror is in the back wall all it can reflect is the blackness of the auditorium and a bunch of lights.
	David M
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bmiller025 Star Joined: 10/06/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 82	Posted: 10/25/12 at 2:21am
	As I promised to post the other night, here are three images that include the fake window on the set of my latest show: http://www.brianmiller.biz/PA241068s.jpg http://www.brianmiller.biz/PA241189s.jpg http://www.brianmiller.biz/PA241484s.jpg
	http://www.brianmiller.biz/BrianDesign.htm
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Raging Thespian Player Joined: 2/29/12 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 22	Posted: 10/31/12 at 12:23pm
	Good job Brian! It certainly looks like daylight and evening shots to me.
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AlanF Walk-On Joined: 10/16/12 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:41am
	Great job, Brian ... looks terrific and really conveys a sense of time of day. I think I'm going to go with David's suggestion, though, of light leaking through the window blinds from behind. Window blinds are going to be necessary, anyway, because I need the room to be pitch black at some points in the script, which wouldn't be believable with a uncovered window facing out on a cityscape. I think that the kind of effect that Brian created might be spoiled by window blinds, since they would probably make it obvious that the light is coming from the front.
	IP Logged