Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Transition from renting to owning our own theater

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TomT
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Joined: 3/19/11
Location: United States
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Posted: 4/25/11 at 5:01pm

Thanks for all your thoughts on this, David. This kind of thorough planning ahead works out to be so much less expensive (and frustrating) in the long haul. How have you prepared a new building for possible future wiring needs? It seems like we could "plumb" the walls / ceiling of likely wiring destinations with 2-inch conduit so we'd have enough space to pull needed wiring from one area to another when we discover we need it? Any other ideas on how you'd approach this?

Tom T

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TomT
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Posted: 4/25/11 at 5:39pm

Hey JoeMc, thanks for your ideas on the financing piece for our theater. Property values have gone down so much locally in the past 3 or 4 years they could hopefully only go up from here. So maybe this kind of arrangement with the bank would benefit us. We're committed to moving ahead with this project and want to strike a workable balance between a good looking building and having good technical equipment.

We'll be in the heart of downtown where there has been a lot of restoration / renovation and many new businesses, like nice restaurants, bars, and wine bars, opening. We think we'll be a benefit to them by bringing in more potential customers for their businesses, and visa versa.

The floor plan we have posted on our website is now obsolete, and I haven't seen the new one yet. We found out that the existing building we intended to remodel didn't have the structural integrety for a second story, and now we'll be tearing down and starting new. Good for us because it'll save a bunch of money and give us more flexibility in how we configure the building.

Tom T

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David McCall
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Joined: 1/28/09
Location: United States
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Posts: 299

Posted: 4/25/11 at 7:21pm

I tend toward to prefer troughs where ever possible. If you loose your pull string in a crowed conduit it can take a while to recover. A while is something we don't have a lot of :-)

One trick I've seen is to run two conduits in parallel and put a closed loop of nylon rope down one pipe and back up the other. That way you don't loose your pull line and you can use one tube for sensitive stuff like mics and other audio and use the other for noisy stuff like DMX and power.

For example, you will probably need to run an audio snake from the stage to the house mixing position. What that snake will look like will change in the future. For now it is mostly a bunch of tails with XLR connectors and would be a challenge to fit through a 2" conduit.

What would make me happiest would be essentially a catwalk that would go down both walls all of the way from the stage to the booth at the back of the room. This catwalk would pass by the box boom positions and have access to the catwalks in the cove positions. It would also have various openings to allow cables to enter the auditorium. That way all of your "temporary" cables can just run along these catwalks and get to just about anywhere in the room without having to go through doorways or areas where the public an see them, and/or trip over them. Don't forget that various feeds may be needed all of the way to the lobby. If you run out of money to run wires and buy equipment in the initial stages of building your new room you can just rent what you need and buy good stuff as you get the funds, rather than skimping on quality the way most people do.

If you have these hidden passageways you can adapt as technology changes. At the moment we plug a lot of our lights into cables that run back to dimmers. However, lately there are getting to be more kinds of fixtures that just want local power and a DMX feed. The DMX feed is starting to be replaced with Ethernet wires.

Even sound is changing. It used to be that all of our power amps were in a rack somewhere and wires ran out to the speakers. Now some speakers have the amps built in, so like the lights, they just need power and an audio feed, but that is changing over to delivering the audio as Ethernet too.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can speak to any requirements to seal the holes between the "backstage areas" and the public areas.

Edited by David McCall - 4/25/11 at 7:44pm

David M

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museav
Lead
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Joined: 11/06/09
Location: United States
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Posts: 38

Posted: 5/27/11 at 5:00pm

It may seem like I'm being overly critical based on where you actually are in the process but it is also not real clear where you are in the process.

Do you have an Architect, Engineers, Consultants, etc. involved? There are going to be many site, code and general design and construction issues that can arise and you'll need guidance if you don't have the expertise in-house.

How was the $2,000,000 total cost and the breakdown shown developed? Has somebody done a preliminary construction budget or does that represent more a budget that you think is possible and that you hope will support the goals defined?

Similar with the Operating Costs. Perhaps this is part of the "Other" but I did not see any costs for the actual facility operation such as utility costs, maintenance, consumables, etc. As Owner everything from the electric and water bills to roof repairs to replacing lamps to cleaning the floors to toilet paper will be up to you. In fact general building maintenance, storage and building systems (mechanical, electrical, plumbing, etc.) accommodations seemed rather limited, if not missing, in the original floor plan.

Speaking of which, while it sounds like the floor plan will be changing, there may be some things to learn from the original plan. For example, you stated 240 seats but the plan seems to show 170 seats. It also seems to show no ADA seating and simply placing wheelchairs in the aisles as shown in the graphic is not allowed. The plan also shows no FOH positions and no space for an audio rack or dimmers, maybe those are on another level but I suggest not limiting yourself to mixing from an upper level booth at the rear of the space.

You mention the community being able to rent the facility for films, speakers, etc. which is probably a good idea in terms of income, but also means that you have to have a venue that supports those. For example, a projector, screen and AV sources could be integrated into the space or rented as needed, the former costs more up front but represents potential incolme, the latter is less cost initially but most of any profit is going elsewhere. You may want to design the facility to support integrated systems even if you can't initially install them. Films may also affect your production costs in terms of licensing (don't forget rights costs in your operating costs as you will likele be responsible for obtaining rights for events held there).

While it's never a bad thing to have extra conduit, paths, etc., there can be code and other issues to consider. For example, you can't run different Classes of service in the same conduit, so running power and DMX in one pipe in an installed system is not permitted. Big conduits are nice, but may be difficult to run in walls or terminate in standard boxes. And while powered speakers, audio over twisted pair (not necessarily Ethernet), digital snakes, etc. are becoming more prevalent, they still often come with an associated cost. And you'll probably want some form of production communication/intercom system.

Brad W.

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TomT
Walk-On
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Joined: 3/19/11
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4

Posted: 6/13/11 at 5:00pm

Wow Brad, thanks for all the questions and potential issues you're raising in your post. Sorry to take so long in replying, but was on vacation for three weeks and didn't have my password with me. I haven't been on our new-building committee, so don't have the details to respond to your specific questions. I'm part of a task force that is helping advise the board in some critical areas, so what I'm trying to do is gather all the info I can that will help them be successful in bringing about this new performing facility. Our task force meets again this week, and I'll present the ideas, concerns, and questions gathered so that we can help the board be as informed as possible as they move forward. I'll ask that some one on the new-building committee respond to your questions so we can get any further thoughts you have to offer. Appreciate your help, Brad.

Tom Taylor

Tom T

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Running Your Theater
Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Theater Administration :Running Your Theater

Topic: Transition from renting to owning our own theater
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Author	Message
TomT Walk-On Joined: 3/19/11 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4	Posted: 4/25/11 at 5:01pm
	Thanks for all your thoughts on this, David. This kind of thorough planning ahead works out to be so much less expensive (and frustrating) in the long haul. How have you prepared a new building for possible future wiring needs? It seems like we could "plumb" the walls / ceiling of likely wiring destinations with 2-inch conduit so we'd have enough space to pull needed wiring from one area to another when we discover we need it? Any other ideas on how you'd approach this?
	Tom T
	IP Logged

TomT Walk-On Joined: 3/19/11 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4	Posted: 4/25/11 at 5:39pm
	Hey JoeMc, thanks for your ideas on the financing piece for our theater. Property values have gone down so much locally in the past 3 or 4 years they could hopefully only go up from here. So maybe this kind of arrangement with the bank would benefit us. We're committed to moving ahead with this project and want to strike a workable balance between a good looking building and having good technical equipment. We'll be in the heart of downtown where there has been a lot of restoration / renovation and many new businesses, like nice restaurants, bars, and wine bars, opening. We think we'll be a benefit to them by bringing in more potential customers for their businesses, and visa versa. The floor plan we have posted on our website is now obsolete, and I haven't seen the new one yet. We found out that the existing building we intended to remodel didn't have the structural integrety for a second story, and now we'll be tearing down and starting new. Good for us because it'll save a bunch of money and give us more flexibility in how we configure the building.
	Tom T
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David McCall Celebrity Joined: 1/28/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 299	Posted: 4/25/11 at 7:21pm
	I tend toward to prefer troughs where ever possible. If you loose your pull string in a crowed conduit it can take a while to recover. A while is something we don't have a lot of :-) One trick I've seen is to run two conduits in parallel and put a closed loop of nylon rope down one pipe and back up the other. That way you don't loose your pull line and you can use one tube for sensitive stuff like mics and other audio and use the other for noisy stuff like DMX and power. For example, you will probably need to run an audio snake from the stage to the house mixing position. What that snake will look like will change in the future. For now it is mostly a bunch of tails with XLR connectors and would be a challenge to fit through a 2" conduit. What would make me happiest would be essentially a catwalk that would go down both walls all of the way from the stage to the booth at the back of the room. This catwalk would pass by the box boom positions and have access to the catwalks in the cove positions. It would also have various openings to allow cables to enter the auditorium. That way all of your "temporary" cables can just run along these catwalks and get to just about anywhere in the room without having to go through doorways or areas where the public an see them, and/or trip over them. Don't forget that various feeds may be needed all of the way to the lobby. If you run out of money to run wires and buy equipment in the initial stages of building your new room you can just rent what you need and buy good stuff as you get the funds, rather than skimping on quality the way most people do. If you have these hidden passageways you can adapt as technology changes. At the moment we plug a lot of our lights into cables that run back to dimmers. However, lately there are getting to be more kinds of fixtures that just want local power and a DMX feed. The DMX feed is starting to be replaced with Ethernet wires. Even sound is changing. It used to be that all of our power amps were in a rack somewhere and wires ran out to the speakers. Now some speakers have the amps built in, so like the lights, they just need power and an audio feed, but that is changing over to delivering the audio as Ethernet too. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can speak to any requirements to seal the holes between the "backstage areas" and the public areas. Edited by David McCall - 4/25/11 at 7:44pm
	David M
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museav Lead Joined: 11/06/09 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 38	Posted: 5/27/11 at 5:00pm
	It may seem like I'm being overly critical based on where you actually are in the process but it is also not real clear where you are in the process. Do you have an Architect, Engineers, Consultants, etc. involved? There are going to be many site, code and general design and construction issues that can arise and you'll need guidance if you don't have the expertise in-house. How was the $2,000,000 total cost and the breakdown shown developed? Has somebody done a preliminary construction budget or does that represent more a budget that you think is possible and that you hope will support the goals defined? Similar with the Operating Costs. Perhaps this is part of the "Other" but I did not see any costs for the actual facility operation such as utility costs, maintenance, consumables, etc. As Owner everything from the electric and water bills to roof repairs to replacing lamps to cleaning the floors to toilet paper will be up to you. In fact general building maintenance, storage and building systems (mechanical, electrical, plumbing, etc.) accommodations seemed rather limited, if not missing, in the original floor plan. Speaking of which, while it sounds like the floor plan will be changing, there may be some things to learn from the original plan. For example, you stated 240 seats but the plan seems to show 170 seats. It also seems to show no ADA seating and simply placing wheelchairs in the aisles as shown in the graphic is not allowed. The plan also shows no FOH positions and no space for an audio rack or dimmers, maybe those are on another level but I suggest not limiting yourself to mixing from an upper level booth at the rear of the space. You mention the community being able to rent the facility for films, speakers, etc. which is probably a good idea in terms of income, but also means that you have to have a venue that supports those. For example, a projector, screen and AV sources could be integrated into the space or rented as needed, the former costs more up front but represents potential incolme, the latter is less cost initially but most of any profit is going elsewhere. You may want to design the facility to support integrated systems even if you can't initially install them. Films may also affect your production costs in terms of licensing (don't forget rights costs in your operating costs as you will likele be responsible for obtaining rights for events held there). While it's never a bad thing to have extra conduit, paths, etc., there can be code and other issues to consider. For example, you can't run different Classes of service in the same conduit, so running power and DMX in one pipe in an installed system is not permitted. Big conduits are nice, but may be difficult to run in walls or terminate in standard boxes. And while powered speakers, audio over twisted pair (not necessarily Ethernet), digital snakes, etc. are becoming more prevalent, they still often come with an associated cost. And you'll probably want some form of production communication/intercom system.
	Brad W.
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TomT Walk-On Joined: 3/19/11 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4	Posted: 6/13/11 at 5:00pm
	Wow Brad, thanks for all the questions and potential issues you're raising in your post. Sorry to take so long in replying, but was on vacation for three weeks and didn't have my password with me. I haven't been on our new-building committee, so don't have the details to respond to your specific questions. I'm part of a task force that is helping advise the board in some critical areas, so what I'm trying to do is gather all the info I can that will help them be successful in bringing about this new performing facility. Our task force meets again this week, and I'll present the ideas, concerns, and questions gathered so that we can help the board be as informed as possible as they move forward. I'll ask that some one on the new-building committee respond to your questions so we can get any further thoughts you have to offer. Appreciate your help, Brad. Tom Taylor
	Tom T
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