Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: The FIRE CURTAIN versus the UNIT SET

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Mr. Lowell
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Topic: The FIRE CURTAIN versus the UNIT SET
Posted: 5/12/08 at 10:04am

Over the years I have designed large cracks into my flats, step units and platforms in order to accommodate the fall line of the Fire Curtain in my proscenium theater. I do this out of common sense, but I assume there is a law written about this somewhere.

1) What have you other designers done to avoid obstructing your Fire Curtain?

2) Or, do you ignore the curtain and build large Unit Sets anyway?

3) Where is it written?! Where can I find laws about Fire Curtains in local, state or national Fire Codes.

4) And what about more "fluid" obstructions of the curtain line, such as orchestra chairs, chorus risers, drum sets, etc...?

Thanks, Dana

Mr. Lowell,
Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director,
for the Linda Sloan Theatre,
in the Davison Center for the Arts,
at Greensboro Day School

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Topper
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Posted: 5/12/08 at 11:16am

Basically, there doesn't seem to be any national laws regarding fire curtains because the design of the theaters has changed so much over the years there is an ongoing debate as to whether fire curtains are practical or necessary. Since the advent of sprinkler systems, designers have foregone the use of the fire curtain altogether.

Here's a link to an article that might help you:

http://www.theatreconsultants.org/fc_esta.html

It also mentions the horrific Iriquois Theater Fire of 1903 where more than 600 people perished. At the bottom of the article is the author's email address. From his credentials listed it appears he's the man with the answers you seek. Good luck!

"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone

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JoeMc
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Posted: 5/13/08 at 1:19am

I can't help with your fire regulations, but I know in Britain. there is a regulation that the Fire Curtain [Also know as the "Iron'] has to be shown to the audience, at least once during a performance. This is normally done during the interval. Which precludes any sets or set pieces, restricting it's operation. I have worked on shows there, where the set protruded on to Apron. Like you it was designed to accommodate the fire curtain being activated.

As suggested by Topper we now use deluge water systems these days. Which can be a drama & cause bigger problems, with electrical lighting rigs. To the point in new theatres where there are large exhaust fans, on the roof, above the fly loft. That take out any smoke, from the stage & fly's, then vent to the outside.

In fact they are that powerful they will draw up any soft hangings & anything else.

The only thing they still employ are smoke doors, which open to vent the smoke from the auditorium. Also fire doors to isolate the stage area.

I realise this does not help you!

So I with any 'fluid' settings, as you describe, they would have to be set to clear the Fire curtain line.

[western] Gondawandaland
"Hear the light & see the sound!
TOI TOI CHOOKAS
{may you always play to a full house!}

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mvp1114
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Posted: 12/20/08 at 12:40pm

As far as I know, Fire Codes in the US require that a proscenium stage's fire curtain be unobstructed at all times. I'm stage tech director at my school and my wife is Risk Manager for another school district, and this has been one of our conversation points as she developed practice for her district, and I've been retrofitting (wrong word but you know what I mean) our practices as we progressed. I've learned a lot more than I knew or wanted to know before.

The Applicable OSHA standards are contained in 29 CFR Subpart L-1910.155 through 1910.165. The NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) Life Safety Code requires that "no scenery or prop of any type shall block the safety curtain from coming in." There are a couple of "get arounds" mentioned but they require more trained adults onstage to monitor and respond in case of an emergency, and extra ventilation capability added. That's beyond the scope of my school's theatre budget.

We all have props and/or setpieces that occasionally intersect the plaster line of a proscenium stage (try getting the drama coach, deep in his/her creative throes, to avoid putting a chair "right there!"). I just say "OK" and then have my crew members slowly scoot the spikes clear if it's at all possible. I also design my hard set pieces with an opening for the fire curtain, like you do, and border the slots with glo-paint to keep the actors from falling in.

My wife found a really, really good book by Dr. Randall W. A. Davidson on this and other safety subjects - specifically for school theatres. The title is "Practical Health and Safety Guidelines for School Theater Operations." It's kind of pricey ($75) but it helped a lot setting up our guidelines, and it had everything in one place. Try http://theatersafetybook.com/TSB/About/Welcome.cfm

- that was the cheapest we found (sorry for the infomercial - insert disclaimer here: I am not connected with this site, author, or book in any way).

Mike

schlechy techy

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KEB54
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Posted: 12/22/08 at 11:17am

Very interesting subject!

My local High school had a new procinium theatre built in (I think) 2000. It does not have a fire curtain. One of our universities had a new theatre built in 1974 and it does have a fire curtain. The other university, whose main theatre is older, does not have one. The community theatre does not have one and it is the oldest procinium theatre in the area.

I'm not sure about the other area high schools. I do know that there are several other flexible /black box type theatres in the area and obviously they don't have fire curtains.

All of these theatres have frequent fire inspections. I have never been too deeply involved with the findings and recomendations, but don't recall any concerns regarding the fire curtain or lack thereof.

Interesting thread. I'm anxious to hear comments from others.

KEB

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MartyW
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Posted: 12/22/08 at 11:47am

Last theater I worked that had a fire curtain was back in Maryland and its been over ten years. Not saying anything has changed, just haven't worked an arch for awhile thats had one. What I do remember about our old curtain was how heavy it was. and it came down with a fury when the emergency rope was cut ( we checked it once during a renovation) I think if a flat was built with a 1 x 4 or 2x2 or less it would probably cut it in half when it fell... Don't know if they are all built like that, but then I also don't know the answer to your question.. Like Keb said, interesting..

Marty W

"Till next we trod the boards.."

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mvp1114
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Posted: 12/22/08 at 1:37pm

I've seen 50/50 the theatres with and without fire curtains (I'm talking about proscenium stages with flyspace; in the round's etc. have different rules).

Our school's theatre (built in 1912, updated in the '40's, '60's, and a couple of years ago) still has the asbestos fire curtain, but it's a 2-stage (2 section, when closing normally it has a "braking" effect for the last 6 feet or so). Heavy as it is, once the emergency line is cut or the fusible links let go, I wonder if it would crush a setpiece or piece of furniture since it's designed NOT to crush an unfortunate actor who happens to be in the way.

Most of the auditoriums in my district have this kind of curtain - it also allows locking the stage down when not in use (I think most schools with this kind of stage probably have something similar). I can remember one school, in another district that I worked in but not as the tech guy, where they made a "large group lecture hall" when they built the new building - i.e. as a "getaround" for some of the codes for school theatres. No fire curtain, no lockdown ability. That came around to bite them a few years later when some young pranksters broke into the auditorium right before opening night and "decorated" the sets for a play.

As for the asbestos fire curtain, it's still fully encapsulated. Other than sprinklers, what other fire curtain/surpressant systems do your schools/theatres use?

Mike

schlechy techy

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techdirector
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Posted: 12/22/08 at 1:42pm

Many newer theaters, especially ones that do not have a fly loft, will use a flame resistant main curtain in place of a dedicated fire curtain. These are specially constructed and certified curtains that have a flame resistant lining rated for a certain number of hours of protection.

Many of the older fire curtains that fall when a trip line is cut or broken or an emergency button is pushed were made of asbestos and have been removed, but there are still many theaters that have one of these monsters hanging in the fly.

A flame resistant main curtain is permissable under the fire code, but it still has to be able to close completely in an unobstructed manner.

Many of the sets that I have designed have openings for the fire curtain of hinged sections that will swing out of the way if the main curtain is closed in an emergency.

BTW - There are also codes limiting the amount of scenery or "fire load" that is permitted downstage of the proscenium and/or fire curtain. I don't have the numbers in front of me but you could always contact you local fire inspector for the details. Of course, this might open a bigger can of worms than you might be ready for.

Great topic!

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Set Design and Construction
Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Set Design and Construction

Author	Message
Mr. Lowell Celebrity Joined: 1/30/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 269	Topic: The FIRE CURTAIN versus the UNIT SET Posted: 5/12/08 at 10:04am
	Over the years I have designed large cracks into my flats, step units and platforms in order to accommodate the fall line of the Fire Curtain in my proscenium theater. I do this out of common sense, but I assume there is a law written about this somewhere. 1) What have you other designers done to avoid obstructing your Fire Curtain? 2) Or, do you ignore the curtain and build large Unit Sets anyway? 3) Where is it written?! Where can I find laws about Fire Curtains in local, state or national Fire Codes. 4) And what about more "fluid" obstructions of the curtain line, such as orchestra chairs, chorus risers, drum sets, etc...? Thanks, Dana
	Mr. Lowell, Lighting/Set Designer & Tech Director, for the Linda Sloan Theatre, in the Davison Center for the Arts, at Greensboro Day School

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Topper Celebrity Joined: 1/27/05 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 543	Posted: 5/12/08 at 11:16am
	Basically, there doesn't seem to be any national laws regarding fire curtains because the design of the theaters has changed so much over the years there is an ongoing debate as to whether fire curtains are practical or necessary. Since the advent of sprinkler systems, designers have foregone the use of the fire curtain altogether. Here's a link to an article that might help you: http://www.theatreconsultants.org/fc_esta.html It also mentions the horrific Iriquois Theater Fire of 1903 where more than 600 people perished. At the bottom of the article is the author's email address. From his credentials listed it appears he's the man with the answers you seek. Good luck!
	"None of us really grow up. All we ever do is learn how to behave in public." -- Keith Johnstone
	IP Logged

JoeMc Celebrity Joined: 3/13/06 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 832	Posted: 5/13/08 at 1:19am
	I can't help with your fire regulations, but I know in Britain. there is a regulation that the Fire Curtain [Also know as the "Iron'] has to be shown to the audience, at least once during a performance. This is normally done during the interval. Which precludes any sets or set pieces, restricting it's operation. I have worked on shows there, where the set protruded on to Apron. Like you it was designed to accommodate the fire curtain being activated. As suggested by Topper we now use deluge water systems these days. Which can be a drama & cause bigger problems, with electrical lighting rigs. To the point in new theatres where there are large exhaust fans, on the roof, above the fly loft. That take out any smoke, from the stage & fly's, then vent to the outside. In fact they are that powerful they will draw up any soft hangings & anything else. The only thing they still employ are smoke doors, which open to vent the smoke from the auditorium. Also fire doors to isolate the stage area. I realise this does not help you! So I with any 'fluid' settings, as you describe, they would have to be set to clear the Fire curtain line.
	[western] Gondawandaland "Hear the light & see the sound! TOI TOI CHOOKAS {may you always play to a full house!}
	IP Logged

mvp1114 Walk-On Joined: 1/26/08 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4	Posted: 12/20/08 at 12:40pm
	As far as I know, Fire Codes in the US require that a proscenium stage's fire curtain be unobstructed at all times. I'm stage tech director at my school and my wife is Risk Manager for another school district, and this has been one of our conversation points as she developed practice for her district, and I've been retrofitting (wrong word but you know what I mean) our practices as we progressed. I've learned a lot more than I knew or wanted to know before. The Applicable OSHA standards are contained in 29 CFR Subpart L-1910.155 through 1910.165. The NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) Life Safety Code requires that "no scenery or prop of any type shall block the safety curtain from coming in." There are a couple of "get arounds" mentioned but they require more trained adults onstage to monitor and respond in case of an emergency, and extra ventilation capability added. That's beyond the scope of my school's theatre budget. We all have props and/or setpieces that occasionally intersect the plaster line of a proscenium stage (try getting the drama coach, deep in his/her creative throes, to avoid putting a chair "right there!"). I just say "OK" and then have my crew members slowly scoot the spikes clear if it's at all possible. I also design my hard set pieces with an opening for the fire curtain, like you do, and border the slots with glo-paint to keep the actors from falling in. My wife found a really, really good book by Dr. Randall W. A. Davidson on this and other safety subjects - specifically for school theatres. The title is "Practical Health and Safety Guidelines for School Theater Operations." It's kind of pricey ($75) but it helped a lot setting up our guidelines, and it had everything in one place. Try http://theatersafetybook.com/TSB/About/Welcome.cfm - that was the cheapest we found (sorry for the infomercial - insert disclaimer here: I am not connected with this site, author, or book in any way). Mike
	schlechy techy
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KEB54 Celebrity Joined: 7/24/08 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 227	Posted: 12/22/08 at 11:17am
	Very interesting subject! My local High school had a new procinium theatre built in (I think) 2000. It does not have a fire curtain. One of our universities had a new theatre built in 1974 and it does have a fire curtain. The other university, whose main theatre is older, does not have one. The community theatre does not have one and it is the oldest procinium theatre in the area. I'm not sure about the other area high schools. I do know that there are several other flexible /black box type theatres in the area and obviously they don't have fire curtains. All of these theatres have frequent fire inspections. I have never been too deeply involved with the findings and recomendations, but don't recall any concerns regarding the fire curtain or lack thereof. Interesting thread. I'm anxious to hear comments from others.
	KEB
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MartyW Celebrity Joined: 2/02/04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 555	Posted: 12/22/08 at 11:47am
	Last theater I worked that had a fire curtain was back in Maryland and its been over ten years. Not saying anything has changed, just haven't worked an arch for awhile thats had one. What I do remember about our old curtain was how heavy it was. and it came down with a fury when the emergency rope was cut ( we checked it once during a renovation) I think if a flat was built with a 1 x 4 or 2x2 or less it would probably cut it in half when it fell... Don't know if they are all built like that, but then I also don't know the answer to your question.. Like Keb said, interesting..
	Marty W "Till next we trod the boards.."
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mvp1114 Walk-On Joined: 1/26/08 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 4	Posted: 12/22/08 at 1:37pm
	I've seen 50/50 the theatres with and without fire curtains (I'm talking about proscenium stages with flyspace; in the round's etc. have different rules). Our school's theatre (built in 1912, updated in the '40's, '60's, and a couple of years ago) still has the asbestos fire curtain, but it's a 2-stage (2 section, when closing normally it has a "braking" effect for the last 6 feet or so). Heavy as it is, once the emergency line is cut or the fusible links let go, I wonder if it would crush a setpiece or piece of furniture since it's designed NOT to crush an unfortunate actor who happens to be in the way. Most of the auditoriums in my district have this kind of curtain - it also allows locking the stage down when not in use (I think most schools with this kind of stage probably have something similar). I can remember one school, in another district that I worked in but not as the tech guy, where they made a "large group lecture hall" when they built the new building - i.e. as a "getaround" for some of the codes for school theatres. No fire curtain, no lockdown ability. That came around to bite them a few years later when some young pranksters broke into the auditorium right before opening night and "decorated" the sets for a play. As for the asbestos fire curtain, it's still fully encapsulated. Other than sprinklers, what other fire curtain/surpressant systems do your schools/theatres use? Mike
	schlechy techy
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techdirector Walk-On Joined: 7/12/08 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 8	Posted: 12/22/08 at 1:42pm
	Many newer theaters, especially ones that do not have a fly loft, will use a flame resistant main curtain in place of a dedicated fire curtain. These are specially constructed and certified curtains that have a flame resistant lining rated for a certain number of hours of protection. Many of the older fire curtains that fall when a trip line is cut or broken or an emergency button is pushed were made of asbestos and have been removed, but there are still many theaters that have one of these monsters hanging in the fly. A flame resistant main curtain is permissable under the fire code, but it still has to be able to close completely in an unobstructed manner. Many of the sets that I have designed have openings for the fire curtain of hinged sections that will swing out of the way if the main curtain is closed in an emergency. BTW - There are also codes limiting the amount of scenery or "fire load" that is permitted downstage of the proscenium and/or fire curtain. I don't have the numbers in front of me but you could always contact you local fire inspector for the details. Of course, this might open a bigger can of worms than you might be ready for. Great topic!
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