Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board: Projection on Scrim

Author

Message

msthtr
Walk-On
Walk-On

Joined: 5/17/05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0

Topic: Projection on Scrim
Posted: 9/20/07 at 4:09pm

Can anyone help me on this one? We will be projecting images for our show and would like for them to be projected onto a SCRIM. Now ....I was doing some reading and read that images that are projected from that BACK on a Scrim can be fuzzy and a little distorted. However, projecting from the FRONT would cast shadows...

All in all I have SEVERAL questions

#1 is the above true?

#2 What is the TYPE of scrim I should be looking for?

Any assistance or a STEP BY STEP GUIDE Wink

would be greatly appreciated!

IP Logged

Gaafa
Celebrity

Joined: 3/21/04
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1181

Posted: 9/20/07 at 7:40pm

While the answer would be yes!
There is a few factors that should be considered.
The ability of the projector to be able to do vertical & lateral keystone adjustments, positioning of the projector to the acting area if front projection. Distance of the back projection & a lot more other things to take into account.
If you have the space BP on to a scrim is the probably a better way to go, rather than worry about the warm & cold props/settings casting shadows.
Which ever way you decide be prepared to experiment & muck about with it.
Also the punters sight lines are important, to ensure they don't cop an eye full of the hot spot from the projector. Normally with BP & short space US, a mirror can be used to bounce the image on to the scrim, this has a doubling effect by a factor of 4. Set masking can be utalised to to square up or shape the projected image.
I think we might need a wee bit more info on the logistics of your space & what you are attempting to achieve?
Instaed of me prattling on like a wombat, about idiot proofing the projection space, from wandering techies & other yoyo's getting in the way of the beam. Also lamp wash on the scrim & substituting side & cross lamp lighting of the mise en scene. Wink

Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}

IP Logged

vickifrank
Celebrity

Joined: 9/21/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 332

Posted: 9/21/07 at 8:22am

Consider using a Chameleon Scrim (from www.studio-productions-inc.com) its a better projection surface. Its better for front projection and rear projection because it has a denser surface. Its better for rear projection because its thinner.

If you look at a sharkstooth scrim it has holes about the size of a screen window--you lose some of what you project through the holes. Also in rear projection, if you look at sharks tooth its actually a "double knit" pattern, making it really fairly thick. Thick doesn't transmit the light as well--thus thinner is better in a rear projection surface. Chameleon scrim also hangs square (no hourglassing), comes in several colors, and costs whole lots less.

IP Logged

drose
Celebrity

Joined: 8/23/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 162

Posted: 9/21/07 at 11:10am

Will the chameleon scrim works as sharkstoothe scrim for other stage purposes? I am thinking mainly of appearing opaque when lit from above front and transparent when back lit? Or does it have different specialty applications. Guess I'm looking for a short compare/contrasts list of properties. Thanks. - d

IP Logged

vickifrank
Celebrity

Joined: 9/21/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 332

Posted: 9/21/07 at 3:03pm

Yes...similar in technique of lighting and effect. However, not exactly the same. When front lit a Sharks tooth is VERY difficult to make opaque, Chameleon is far easier to make opaque (denser surface=less holes). When lighting an actor/set behind Sharks tooth the effect looks like looking through a screen window. Objects behind Chameleon are slightly diffused and glow. The effect is like a halo around a person.

Other differences: Chameleon is a better silhouette screen, same reasons. Chameleon is more reactive to light (same reason its a better projection surface). Chameleon hangs square--no hourglass effect. Two Chameleons hung together (one in front of the other) have no moire effect. Chameleon is cheaper about 1/2 or even 1/3 cost of sharks tooth. Chameleon comes in 14 colors. Chameleon weighs less--lots less. Chameleon can't run like a stocking if snagged (a common sharks tooth issue). Chameleon can be easily and nearly invisibly repaired if needed. Chameleon can't rot (Cotton Sharkstooth rots from Flame Retardant).

Chameleon can be printed or painted. Its a great painting surface--and a lot easier to paint. And Chameleon is a scrim that can be made into an Oleo Drop (yep, an Oleo Scrim)

Hanging square and needing no side seam and no moire effect means that you can use it for secret entrances. A person appears behind the scrim, and can walk through it (obviously through 2 panels)

It also means you don't have to have a full stage width scrim.

One limitation is size. Sharkstooth comes in larger sizes, but Chameleon can be 16' h x 70' w for example. Or 30' h x 15' 8" w. In other words size limits it in one direction.

Second limitation. No scrim is made of cast iron. It won't last forever, but then neither does sharkstooth.

You can rent it, and the rental applied toward the purchase.

IP Logged

vickifrank
Celebrity

Joined: 9/21/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 332

Posted: 9/21/07 at 3:04pm

Forgot to mention, you need a little upstage space. Don't reveal an actor within 2 feet of scrim...place them at 3 foot or more upstage.

IP Logged

drose
Celebrity

Joined: 8/23/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 162

Posted: 9/21/07 at 3:36pm

Is chameleon a trade name, brand name, a material name...How do I ask for it? and where?

IP Logged

vickifrank
Celebrity

Joined: 9/21/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 332

Posted: 9/21/07 at 4:14pm

Chameleon is a trademarked brand name. Studio Productions is the manufacturer and the only vendor in the theater field, so you buy direct. You can call 1-800-359-2964. Or you can write sales1@studio-productions-inc.com. Web site (taking you to the scrim page): www.studio-productions-inc.com/set_home.html Also rental page www.studio-productions-inc.com/rental_order.html

(There are US and Canadian and international distributors in Photographic market. Same price, different finishing.)

IP Logged

Gaafa
Celebrity

Joined: 3/21/04
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1181

Posted: 9/21/07 at 9:35pm

Great gear!
I could have used this heaps of times with my mob over here.
No moire effect is a great factor & the ability to use mulipile reveal effects, that has fantastic potential.
It's a pity I can't have another life!
This being comeatre cost is a constant factor, so how does this compare?
As we tend to use what ever we fosick from around the place, anything from net curtaining to shade cloth.
Is it fire proof or can retardants be applied?
Not that it is an issue here, as we are so laid back none bother doing it anyway, not enem the Pro's!
Although they do in amdram in Pommy land & the EU. The Pohms fire proof everything & are religious about it, I think only bog paper in the tiolets, gets away with not being done, possibly because of it's flush ability?
Which is a better attitude than the wally's here "She'l be right mate, we have never had a fire in fourty five years"! {it must have been a big one?}
But that's another story?
anyhow being a man/woman made product this will raise it's head, I'm sure.
If it's cost effective [gawd I hate that adage!] which it must be as compared to talior made scims & gauzes shorter & more delicate life.
This would work well for the Panto scene for the amdram Pohms, also as most of the groups are doing 'In to the woods' at present;- http://www.amdram.co.uk/
Also the Blueroom could be interested for F/B Projection, as they are more for pro's & British Theatre Techies. It's only my feelings in that they don't seem to suffer amatuers that well! ;- http://www.blue-room.org.uk/
Chookas it's a Rippah vickifrank.
[May be worth a few Sov's to promote, as I'm sure it would help here on this forum - it pays to advertise. - sorry it's not my place to stick my neb in! Embarrassed

]
I for one look forward to your further input & sharing on the forum. Star

Joe
Western Gondawandaland
turn right @ Perth.
Hear the light & see the sound.
Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"}
May you always play
to a full house}

IP Logged

vickifrank
Celebrity

Joined: 9/21/07
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 332

Posted: 9/21/07 at 11:19pm

It's not inherantly Flame Retardant, but you can have Rosco Flamex S-33 applied.

You mentioned cost: for a 15'h x 30'w fully finished with grommets and ties on top and a pocket on the bottom its $450 (US) without Flame Retardant and $530 (US) with Flame Retardant. Shipment to Perth is possible

You wouldn't have flame retardant applied if you were planning on painting it. Other wise most people do have it applied.

Rental for that size is $195 for two weeks. But that isn't available in Perth!

As for Into the Woods, there are several uses. You can cut the stuff without it unwraveling or curling in on itself. So imagine the Woods created out of it by cutting large hanging leaf shapes. They'd ripple a little on stage in the heat currents and you could project some patterns onto them. Also Grandma's cottage and bed scene works well with the cottage painted on a scrim panel (hangs square), and the bed scene either played in silhouette behind it or revealed behind it. The cottage can also be projected on the scrim--allowing you to save the scrim for different use in other shows.

IP Logged

Lights and Sound
Community Theater Green Room Discussion Board :Producing Theater :Lights and Sound

Author	Message
msthtr Walk-On Joined: 5/17/05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Topic: Projection on Scrim Posted: 9/20/07 at 4:09pm
	Can anyone help me on this one? We will be projecting images for our show and would like for them to be projected onto a SCRIM. Now ....I was doing some reading and read that images that are projected from that BACK on a Scrim can be fuzzy and a little distorted. However, projecting from the FRONT would cast shadows... All in all I have SEVERAL questions #1 is the above true? #2 What is the TYPE of scrim I should be looking for? Any assistance or a STEP BY STEP GUIDE would be greatly appreciated!

	IP Logged

Gaafa Celebrity Joined: 3/21/04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1181	Posted: 9/20/07 at 7:40pm
	While the answer would be yes! There is a few factors that should be considered. The ability of the projector to be able to do vertical & lateral keystone adjustments, positioning of the projector to the acting area if front projection. Distance of the back projection & a lot more other things to take into account. If you have the space BP on to a scrim is the probably a better way to go, rather than worry about the warm & cold props/settings casting shadows. Which ever way you decide be prepared to experiment & muck about with it. Also the punters sight lines are important, to ensure they don't cop an eye full of the hot spot from the projector. Normally with BP & short space US, a mirror can be used to bounce the image on to the scrim, this has a doubling effect by a factor of 4. Set masking can be utalised to to square up or shape the projected image. I think we might need a wee bit more info on the logistics of your space & what you are attempting to achieve? Instaed of me prattling on like a wombat, about idiot proofing the projection space, from wandering techies & other yoyo's getting in the way of the beam. Also lamp wash on the scrim & substituting side & cross lamp lighting of the mise en scene.
	Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house}
	IP Logged

vickifrank Celebrity Joined: 9/21/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 332	Posted: 9/21/07 at 8:22am
	Consider using a Chameleon Scrim (from www.studio-productions-inc.com) its a better projection surface. Its better for front projection and rear projection because it has a denser surface. Its better for rear projection because its thinner. If you look at a sharkstooth scrim it has holes about the size of a screen window--you lose some of what you project through the holes. Also in rear projection, if you look at sharks tooth its actually a "double knit" pattern, making it really fairly thick. Thick doesn't transmit the light as well--thus thinner is better in a rear projection surface. Chameleon scrim also hangs square (no hourglassing), comes in several colors, and costs whole lots less.
	IP Logged

drose Celebrity Joined: 8/23/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 162	Posted: 9/21/07 at 11:10am
	Will the chameleon scrim works as sharkstoothe scrim for other stage purposes? I am thinking mainly of appearing opaque when lit from above front and transparent when back lit? Or does it have different specialty applications. Guess I'm looking for a short compare/contrasts list of properties. Thanks. - d
	IP Logged

vickifrank Celebrity Joined: 9/21/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 332	Posted: 9/21/07 at 3:03pm
	Yes...similar in technique of lighting and effect. However, not exactly the same. When front lit a Sharks tooth is VERY difficult to make opaque, Chameleon is far easier to make opaque (denser surface=less holes). When lighting an actor/set behind Sharks tooth the effect looks like looking through a screen window. Objects behind Chameleon are slightly diffused and glow. The effect is like a halo around a person. Other differences: Chameleon is a better silhouette screen, same reasons. Chameleon is more reactive to light (same reason its a better projection surface). Chameleon hangs square--no hourglass effect. Two Chameleons hung together (one in front of the other) have no moire effect. Chameleon is cheaper about 1/2 or even 1/3 cost of sharks tooth. Chameleon comes in 14 colors. Chameleon weighs less--lots less. Chameleon can't run like a stocking if snagged (a common sharks tooth issue). Chameleon can be easily and nearly invisibly repaired if needed. Chameleon can't rot (Cotton Sharkstooth rots from Flame Retardant). Chameleon can be printed or painted. Its a great painting surface--and a lot easier to paint. And Chameleon is a scrim that can be made into an Oleo Drop (yep, an Oleo Scrim) Hanging square and needing no side seam and no moire effect means that you can use it for secret entrances. A person appears behind the scrim, and can walk through it (obviously through 2 panels) It also means you don't have to have a full stage width scrim. One limitation is size. Sharkstooth comes in larger sizes, but Chameleon can be 16' h x 70' w for example. Or 30' h x 15' 8" w. In other words size limits it in one direction. Second limitation. No scrim is made of cast iron. It won't last forever, but then neither does sharkstooth. You can rent it, and the rental applied toward the purchase.
	IP Logged

vickifrank Celebrity Joined: 9/21/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 332	Posted: 9/21/07 at 3:04pm
	Forgot to mention, you need a little upstage space. Don't reveal an actor within 2 feet of scrim...place them at 3 foot or more upstage.
	IP Logged

drose Celebrity Joined: 8/23/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 162	Posted: 9/21/07 at 3:36pm
	Is chameleon a trade name, brand name, a material name...How do I ask for it? and where?
	IP Logged

vickifrank Celebrity Joined: 9/21/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 332	Posted: 9/21/07 at 4:14pm
	Chameleon is a trademarked brand name. Studio Productions is the manufacturer and the only vendor in the theater field, so you buy direct. You can call 1-800-359-2964. Or you can write sales1@studio-productions-inc.com. Web site (taking you to the scrim page): www.studio-productions-inc.com/set_home.html Also rental page www.studio-productions-inc.com/rental_order.html (There are US and Canadian and international distributors in Photographic market. Same price, different finishing.)
	IP Logged

Gaafa Celebrity Joined: 3/21/04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1181	Posted: 9/21/07 at 9:35pm
	Great gear! I could have used this heaps of times with my mob over here. No moire effect is a great factor & the ability to use mulipile reveal effects, that has fantastic potential. It's a pity I can't have another life! This being comeatre cost is a constant factor, so how does this compare? As we tend to use what ever we fosick from around the place, anything from net curtaining to shade cloth. Is it fire proof or can retardants be applied? Not that it is an issue here, as we are so laid back none bother doing it anyway, not enem the Pro's! Although they do in amdram in Pommy land & the EU. The Pohms fire proof everything & are religious about it, I think only bog paper in the tiolets, gets away with not being done, possibly because of it's flush ability? Which is a better attitude than the wally's here "She'l be right mate, we have never had a fire in fourty five years"! {it must have been a big one?} But that's another story? anyhow being a man/woman made product this will raise it's head, I'm sure. If it's cost effective [gawd I hate that adage!] which it must be as compared to talior made scims & gauzes shorter & more delicate life. This would work well for the Panto scene for the amdram Pohms, also as most of the groups are doing 'In to the woods' at present;- http://www.amdram.co.uk/ Also the Blueroom could be interested for F/B Projection, as they are more for pro's & British Theatre Techies. It's only my feelings in that they don't seem to suffer amatuers that well! ;- http://www.blue-room.org.uk/ Chookas it's a Rippah vickifrank. [May be worth a few Sov's to promote, as I'm sure it would help here on this forum - it pays to advertise. - sorry it's not my place to stick my neb in!] I for one look forward to your further input & sharing on the forum.
	Joe Western Gondawandaland turn right @ Perth. Hear the light & see the sound. Toi Toi Toi Chookas {{"chook [chicken] it is"} May you always play to a full house}
	IP Logged

vickifrank Celebrity Joined: 9/21/07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 332	Posted: 9/21/07 at 11:19pm
	It's not inherantly Flame Retardant, but you can have Rosco Flamex S-33 applied. You mentioned cost: for a 15'h x 30'w fully finished with grommets and ties on top and a pocket on the bottom its $450 (US) without Flame Retardant and $530 (US) with Flame Retardant. Shipment to Perth is possible You wouldn't have flame retardant applied if you were planning on painting it. Other wise most people do have it applied. Rental for that size is $195 for two weeks. But that isn't available in Perth! As for Into the Woods, there are several uses. You can cut the stuff without it unwraveling or curling in on itself. So imagine the Woods created out of it by cutting large hanging leaf shapes. They'd ripple a little on stage in the heat currents and you could project some patterns onto them. Also Grandma's cottage and bed scene works well with the cottage painted on a scrim panel (hangs square), and the bed scene either played in silhouette behind it or revealed behind it. The cottage can also be projected on the scrim--allowing you to save the scrim for different use in other shows.
	IP Logged

Topic: Projection on Scrim( Topic Closed)
	Page of 2 Next >>